Ed, No biggee. And I didn't mean to insult your patriotism; what did I say that was untrue of religions and also made you feel that way?
For the most part, I agree that sincere and informed people should be able to discuss politics w/o questioning a person's patriotism... However, there are many insincere people who use the sincere person's conscience and sense of fairness to manipulate and/or suppress their point of view. Do I think this is happening on this forum? No, but it is used quite extensively these days in many venues and garb; it is insidious. I keep my mouth shut most of the time, so when I do open it, its usually based on facts, reason, and a reasonably well thought out position. And I admit that when I disagree with someone, my sarcasm tends to leak out... Hey, I'm human just like the rest of you characters. RE: the policies of the current Republican administration... Why is it that you and some of the other Vorts seem to completely IGNORE the fact that there is a bicameral Congress that also is responsible for what happens in this country??? Not to mention the FACT that this very same DEMOCRATICALLY controlled House & Senate have an approval rating that is MUCH lower than the administrations??????????? The fact that I haven't seen these two FACTS even get mentioned in all the political rants makes me wonder just how 'objective' you guys are when it comes to politics, thus, I see the political postings as just noise, and thus my rather blunt and sarcastic methods to improve the SNR. If you don't maintain the same level of openess and desire to consider ALL the facts when talking politics, then this isn't helping to resolve or solve or enlighten anyone. As you rightly point out, this doesn't seem to happen when the topic is science/techy. If you hope to have the political discussions help, then again, put them in a separate group dedicated to informed political discourse in the hopes that others who are interested in politics will see it and learn/contribute. The political discussions on this list, some of which are engaging and thought provoking, will inevitably stay right here... And anyone interested in a good political discussion isn't likely to come to a fringe-science forum! "Unless this discussion is done without excessive emotion and by using the facts..." Wholeheartedly agree. But as I pointed out above, there are some very simple and VERY obvious FACTS that do not get mentioned here; at least not prior to my doing so. Is this forum composed of only a socialistic/liberal viewpoint? If so, then political discussions are nothing more than preaching to the choir, and serving no 'positive' purpose but to make you all feel some sense of 'resonance'. :-) RE: your comment about how politics will affect our lives as well as the ability to do science... Nearly all basic research is done by government agencies and academia; rarely does the business sector do applied, let alone basic research. Congress holds or strongly influences the purse strings for DOE, NSF, NASA, NOAA, DOD, DARPA, and any of the other govt agencies that spend money on science. If reason and objectivity were at work here, then you should be discussing how to reform (the currently democratic) Congress, not the president, and it should take aim at both parties. As far as academia is concerned, it is a bastion of liberal thinking, so if you're worried about how science is going to get done, I suggest you start addressing those that really control it, and stop blaming the president. Can't wait for the electron to be over and we get back to science... No hard feelings, I hope! -Mark -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:55 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan OK Mark, I apologize for using the phase "as usual". Most of your posts are logical. However, in this case you not only made a statement that I know to be untrue about religions, but also insulted my patriotism. You have no understanding of my political views except I, like an increasing number of people, and apparently you as well, have discovered that the policies of the current Republican administration are a disaster. Sincere and informed people can and should discuss how the mess can be best cleaned up without questioning a person's patriotism. Unless this discussion is done without excessive emotion and by using the facts, we are not going to make any progress. As for the discussion of scientific vs political subjects, the political is important now because it will affect all of our lives including our ability to do science. Unfortunately, on this list, the political subjects seem to generate personal attacks while the science does not. I'm sure once the electron is over, we will go back to the personally neutral subject of science. Ed On Nov 2, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Mark Iverson wrote: > Ed wrote: > "As usual, your emotions get the better of logic" > > Tell me how logic supports your conclusion of "As usual" when > referring to my post? To me, I'd have to have read at least 4 to 6 > postings on a topic in order to feel like I would be justified in > using that phrase. Obviously, you think one or two (very small > postings) are adequate. From what I've been reading of your posts > (MANY more than 4 or 6 I might add) and others, there is a whole lot > more emotion in them than in mine… The level of contempt and > condescension in your postings toward the conservative viewpoint is > very strong and if you can't see that, then perhaps you should copy > some of your posts, delete your name from them and ask some people at > the local store to rate the emotion in them on a scale of 1 to 10. > Not whether they agree with them or not, just the emotional 'tone'… > might be enlightening. > > In fact, there is very little emotion here. What prompted my post was > that the s/n ratio on this list is pretty much in the toilet right > now, again. Why don't you create a new list for political discussions > and keep this list for what it was meant. That was my point… however > poorly stated. > Sorry about that… Or, take a vote, and if the majority of Vorts don't > mind the engaging political rants, then I'll not try to keep that > stuff out of here. > > To answer your assumptions and comments… > > I work in a company with offices all over the world, and with all > kinds of people, from diverse backgrounds and religions, and enjoy our > conversations and admire and respect their expertise. I work closely > with at least 2 (former) Iranian citizens, and asked why they decided > to come here and become U.S. citizens... Care to know why? One, > Farshid, even converted from Islam to Zoroastrianism. Care to know > why? > > My son-in-law has served three deployments in Iraq, and I'll take his > word for what the place was like before we got there and when he > left... And for how the average Iraqi citizen feels about our presence > there. Frankly, I wish we weren't there at all… > > I also realize that the extremists I referred to are a small # of the > muslim population, but you don't see the muslim leaders coming out in > strong opposition to the radical sects. Why not? > Perhaps they are too afraid? That in itself speaks volumes... > > You say that terrorist activity is not supported by the general > region. Saudi Arabia has unlimited $ to help combat it, yet, are > they? Not that I'm aware of. In fact, there are some who think that > the Saudis are to some degree funding it. Have they sent in any > equipment or security forces to help the Iraqi govt stabilize things? > Their other neighbor, Iran, is doing everything it can to encourage > the terrorist activities! So I reject your premise that the region > doesn't support that behavior... And suggest that they could do a lot > more to help… but the leaders in that area would rather build > extravagant artificial islands and palaces. How did they get all that > wealth? > Capitalism perhaps? > > You said: > "We killed thousands and destroyed a society in an attempt to kill a > few people who might try to hurt us in the future" > > And that former 'society' killed a hundred times that many (of it's > own people), so I guess your solution is to just turn a blind eye to > it… we haven't taken any goods from that country, just the opposite, > nor their pride. > > Granted, I'm not nearly caught up on the 250+ posting that are still > unread, but I don't sense much 'love of country' in what I've read so > far… > > As I've said before, I am no fan of the Bush admin, and am pretty much > fed up with most all politicians… they are more concerned about the > power struggle with the opposing party, and how to get back or > maintain power, than legislating in a responsible manner what's best > for the average citizen. I have no doubt that this country would be > much better off if we eliminated the political parties altogether… > people and politicians might begin to put country first instead of > party. > > -Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms [HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:40 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: Edmund Storms > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan > > > As usual, your emotions get the better of logic. First of all, not all > Muslims are suicide bombers nor is this an action that is supported by > the general region. Also, how do you separate this action from when we > operate when we bomb from the air? Of course, you can say that we are > trying to hit bad people, which we miss on occasion, but we are sorry > when innocent people are killed. We killed thousands and destroyed a > society in an attempt to kill a few people who might try to hurt us in > the future. But this is ok with you because we are acting in self > defense, but the suicide bombers are not. In fact, this is he only > way they have to fight us and the better armed countries that take > their goods and pride. > > As for my acrimonious feelings about this country, you seem not to > understand the difference in feeling acrimonious about the actions of > the Bush administration and a love of country. Apparently you approve > of everything the administration has done. I hope you do not have a > mortgage and have a good job that stays in this country. I will wait > to see how you feel in the future if past actions are not personal > enough to get your acrimony. > > Ed > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:55 PM, Mark Iverson wrote: > >> Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or any >> other belief systems that want to wipe out other belief systems; >> that >> would strap bombs on their children and handicapped, let alone 'sane' >> adults, all in the name of their religion/god. >> >> With all the acrimonious feelings you have about this country, sounds >> like you'd be much happier in Iraq or Iran! I'll buy your ticket... >> >> -Mark >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Edmund Storms [HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] >> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:38 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Cc: Edmund Storms >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan >> >> How do you tell the good Christians from the bad Christians, Richard? >> Surely you know that bad Christians exist. I suggest you use the >> same method you would apply to Christians. >> >> Ed >> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: > 11/1/2008 7:56 PM > > <winmail.dat> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008 7:56 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008 7:56 PM
