Here is an unrelated paper from ICCF that includes processing the electrode material with heat: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2012/ICCF17/ICCF-17-Dash-Effect%20of%20Recrystallization-Paper.pdf
Jeff On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for all of the ideas Chuck. I will be out of town for a few days, > but will give this method a try when I get back. I just got to thinking if > I clean the nickels using a torch, it might seal up the tiny cracks in the > metal through melting. I can try it both ways. I have set up a styrofoam > minnow bucket in which I will submerge a sealed cell for the electrolysis. > I can then measure the temperature change in the surrounding water and get > a more precise measure of energy output. > > I also plan to drill more holes through the nickels, and add additional > thoriated tungsten rods through these holes. I'm also set up to be able to > take voltage and current measurements in addition to temperature. > > I'm also working on setting up a control system with an Android smartphone > to provide pulsed DC power. If I get some good results with manual > measurements, I hope to be able to use the same setup for automated data > logging. > > Take care, > Jack > > On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jack, >> >> It's funny you said if this is resistive heating, then it highly >> efficient. I had a similar thoughts back in the day. >> >> Let me share some thoughts on the electrolysis of cupronickel in sodium >> carbonate. >> >> Sodium carbonate does make a for a good electrolyte in Hydrogen loading >> experiments where the goal is to embed as much hydrogen as possible in the >> cathode. It is gentle to the anode and does not attack metal, but allows >> for good conductivity through the cell. If your goal is to understand >> hydrogen embedded into the cupronickel via electrolysis, I think Sodium >> Carbonate would be an excellent choice for the electrolyte. Chemically >> Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) Na2[(CO)3] is similar in structure to >> Sodium Borate (borax) Na2[B4O5(OH)4]ยท8H2O and both are ionic compounds. >> >> Experiments like Rossi's and Calianti's use nano scale cupronickel >> powders in a hydrogen gas loading experiment. This implies, that nano scale >> features can bind and hold hydrogen in geometric arrangements that are not >> typically found in nature. So initially we want something that will etch >> the surface of the Cupronickel an make it nano porous. Two possible >> methods can be used here, electro-etching or chemical etching. Chemical >> etching would be the simplest method for creating the nano scale pore >> features. If the etching can get the surface from shiny to mat, that should >> have created enough porosity to effect the possible loading. Rinse and >> clean the metal well after etching. >> >> The process of electro-etching maybe the technique to us her as well. >> Electro-etching, the cupronickel would be attached to the positive side of >> the power supply, and etched using. One could use borax as an electrolyte >> in the beginning, and place the cupronickel on anode (+) side, etch the >> features, and then after a wash and rinse, use that nickel as the cathode >> (-) in an the Sodium Carbonate standard electrolysis. Anyway, the idea with >> sodium carbonate is to really load as much hyrdogen into the metal as >> possible. >> >> Under DC electrolysis, a large portion of the energy will expended in the >> separation of H2O into H gas and O gas. I think a better approach to a >> Rossi or Calieanti system would be to use AC electrolysis once a high-level >> of loading is achieved. So after running the system in DC-mode to load the >> nano features with H, switching to AC should move the H into an out of the >> nano features. If there is a tenancy for H to overcome the Coulomb barrier, >> in the AC environment, the changing polarity might give an extra push. >> Everyone seems to believe loading is a factor in successful excess heat. >> Given how large a nickel is, I would not be surprised at the system taking >> a long amount of time for DC electrolysis gas loading. Then switching to >> AC to initiate a Rossi, Caliani type H gas motion into and out of the metal >> nano etched surface structure. >> >> So the experiment protocol I would try would look something like this: >> >> Step 1) Etch the nickel. Either use a chemical etching or electro-etching >> or sand blast it. For chemical etching, PCB etching solution may work, just >> don't over do it. Also clean the nickel afterwards in water, ultra-sonic >> jewelry cleaner may be a useful step. >> Step 2) DC Electrolysis of Water and Sodium Carbonate, this is to load >> the metal. This may need to run several days, the Nickel should be on >> the negative terminal (cathode (-)). The anode could be graphite. >> Graphite shouldn't oxidize under the gas bubbling and is neutral to Na+ >> ions. (Note: an issue is the possible formation NaOH Sodium Hydroxide a >> strong base). Jack Cole is using thoriated tungsten rods, which is an >> interesting material. It should be resistant to Oxidation or damage from >> Base/Acids for the most part. >> Step 3) Switch to AC for heat. (Or pulsed DC). A high voltage DC pulse >> might also be interesting (but use caution, X-ray are possible). >> Step 3.5) This is where it could be fun to experiment, Switch the >> electrolyte from sodium carbonate to borax solution. >> Step 3.6) Change the AC Frequency? 60Hz -> XX Mhz. >> Step 4) Repeat 2-3-3.5 as needed to replenish hydrogen. >> >> I'm going to replicate the liquid half-wave rectifier from the 1939 >> Popular Science article. What an amazing find that was. >> >> Here are some Interesting facts about the Cupronickel alloy's. >> >> Copper/Nickel catalyst will contain more residual hydrate, hydroxyl and >> carbonates that plain nickel catalysts. Undecomposed Copper/Nickel catalyst >> reduces very easily in hydrogen with two distinct reduction peaks. The >> first between 180-280 degrees C, and the second between 240-450 degrees C, >> which corresponds to the reduction peak for nickel. I find it >> interesting that Rossi preheats his nickel to these range of temperatures. >> Cupronickels forms an FCC crystal typically 19Cu atoms per pure Cu >> crystal, and Ni will substitute with a Cu forming a Cu(19-x)Ni(x) FCC >> Crystal 111 surface. In cupronickel, from a H1s - Ni-3d bond. The H2 bond >> is broken directly above the Ni atom, and the H will absorb into the hollow >> sites on either side of the Ni atom. It's believe twice as much H is >> chemisorbed near the Ni atoms into the latice. One can assume >> the CuNi-d-band influences the H-1s state but more so near Ni. Cu does not >> chemisorb H, Ni Does. Its believed that the d-band of Cu has 0.6 excess >> electrons and Ni has 0.8 less electronics and there for interacts with H-1s >> electron orbital. At 30%Ni 70%cu, the d band is full, and H is less >> chemisorbed on the surface. It's also the most corrosion resistant at that >> point. >> >> Best Regards, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chuck, >>> >>> I like your idea of submersing the whole thing. I did several runs >>> today, and keep getting progressively better heat production (even as the >>> temp has been falling through the evening). Seems to work best doing 20 >>> minute runs followed by 20 minutes with the power off. I put 10 nickels on >>> a thoriated tungsten rod. I first heated up the nickels with a torch after >>> using them for awhile as the anode to oxidize the nickel and then burning >>> off the oxidized nickel with the torch (thinking maybe this will cause >>> microscopic pitting in the nickel). Then I did repeated hydrogen loadings >>> using the nickels/tungsten for the cathode. If this is resistive heating, >>> then it is highly efficient. I raised the temp of 5 oz of water 27F in 20 >>> minutes on the last run. I'm thinking of setting up more of an automated >>> DC pulsing system to see if that will do any better. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Jack >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jack, >>>> >>>> Keep at it. It's a learning experience and probably one of the >>>> most humbling simple experiments you can do. I remember very well the >>>> issue of the alligator clips rusting and corroding over anode, and >>>> wondering "What did that do?", What's in the plating of the alligator >>>> clip? Do you run the cell covered, not covered. If I cover it, do H + O >>>> recombine, and at what rate? >>>> >>>> I spent most of my time after seeing the "effect" developing an >>>> automated data acquisition system. The end result was good, I had >>>> automated 2 thermistor readings and a Geiger counter on a Sanyo 550 (IBM >>>> 8086 sort-of clone) but not voltage or current. This was around 1992. I >>>> wanted to have the whole system automated, just like the National >>>> Instruments show. Just like P&F and all of the other electrolysis CF >>>> experiments, I decided to build a calorimeter based on a large insulated >>>> tank of water (a 7.5 gallon starfoam cooler) lined with >>>> reflective Millard, with the water circulated, the top sealed (and also >>>> reflective) and the CF cell immersed in the bath. The idea was to treat >>>> the Cell as if it was a resistive heater, and measure the water bath heat >>>> as it accumulated heat from the cell. If the effect was large enough, it >>>> should easily overwhelm P=IV as the power accumulated in the thermally >>>> sealed bath. >>>> >>>> The goal was to try B11 + p -> 3He4 + 8.7 MeV as a cold fusion surface >>>> effect. Could that happen? I really don't know. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Chuck >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Chuck, >>>>> >>>>> My experiment has ended for today with my power supply blowing out. I >>>>> think my last test was not a good test of the nickel vs copper. I was >>>>> using what looks like a chrome plated alligator type clip as the anode in >>>>> both. I can see where that could have been a problem as well as I don't >>>>> know what it was plated with. Also, I think it's not a good idea to use >>>>> the same power supply for two cells as it seems more current may flow one >>>>> direction than the other? I didn't use any W in the copper cathode cell >>>>> (only in the one with the nickels). >>>>> >>>>> Now here's the really curious thing. In the copper cell, the 10 ml of >>>>> borax is gone. I tried to mix it in at the beginning, but it just settled >>>>> back to the bottom. Some kind of chemistry was taking place. Perhaps >>>>> producing boric acid? Some of it also appears to have collected in/on the >>>>> anode. >>>>> >>>>> I'm using two small measuring glasses (150 ml capacity filled to 110 >>>>> ml). Before the power supply blew after 3 1/2 hrs the copper cell hit >>>>> 129.7F and the nickel cell was at 79.1. The nickel cell peaked out at >>>>> 92.1 >>>>> after 1 hour and slowly dropped. I think it was a current flow problem as >>>>> those results for the nickel cell were not consistent with my first run. >>>>> >>>>> Also, for anyone trying to replicate should head the following. If >>>>> you use a cooking thermometer, do not leave it in the cell while you are >>>>> running the experiment. I did this with my first one, and it permanently >>>>> altered the readout making it 20F too high because of some deposit on the >>>>> metal that could not be removed. >>>>> >>>>> Jack >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jack, >>>>>> >>>>>> Congratulations, your report is exactly in lines with what I saw >>>>>> with Ni(+) Cu(-) in my jar experiments. That was typically 100ml of H2O >>>>>> and a 3gm Na2B4O7 solution. Once the Ni coin breaks down just a little, >>>>>> in >>>>>> a constant voltage system, the current would jump up and the Ni coin >>>>>> would >>>>>> get hot. (Your counter electrode, should be the temp of the solution). >>>>>> Those quick calculations are interesting because your doing it like I >>>>>> did, >>>>>> running an open system, no recombiner, and your system has >>>>>> hit equilibrium. The fun part is that it will go for days like that, as >>>>>> long as the water is replenished. Eventually you may need to add a >>>>>> little >>>>>> more electrolyte. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know there is some complex boron chemistry going on with metal >>>>>> oxides forming as a result which is typical of electrolysis. What is >>>>>> unusual about this as far as Joule heating, or Ohmic heating, is that in >>>>>> a >>>>>> typical wire, >>>>>> heating occurs in a location where current is pinched where Q is >>>>>> proportional to I^2 R. So typically as in a Nichrome wire, it's a small >>>>>> diameter, and slightly higher resistance than the feeding electrodes. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> you have this really large hunk of metal (the Ni coin) and the feeding >>>>>> wire >>>>>> is smaller than the metal. It just such a large are >>>>>> for resistive heating. >>>>>> >>>>>> I just read your update with the Cu coin as the (+) heating more. >>>>>> What is your counter electrode material. Tungsten? It maybe, W is >>>>>> also >>>>>> one of those interesting H absorbing materials. W was always on the todo >>>>>> list though. Keep going, I'm really interested in seeing what you >>>>>> get. Also, could you guess as to the size of your jar dimensions and >>>>>> weight. A typical glass jar also has a pretty good size heat capacity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> Chuck >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> So that's 141.7g of water. It was an open container so heat freely >>>>>>> dissipated and I would also presume that power was also going into >>>>>>> electrolysis in addition to heating. So, based on Arnaud's >>>>>>> calculations, >>>>>>> we can't rule out purely electrical heating. I'll report on the next >>>>>>> experiment which involves a control cell using pennies instead of >>>>>>> nickels >>>>>>> and no thoriated tungsten. I have two identical cells that I have >>>>>>> filled >>>>>>> with equal amounts of borax and water and will be powering from the same >>>>>>> supply (one has thoriated tungsten/nickels and the other with >>>>>>> pennies/copper). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It was 5 oz of water. I shut it down after the temp maxed out at >>>>>>>> 158F. >>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2012 12:29 PM, "Arnaud Kodeck" <arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>> Find here some simple calorimetry calculations : >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Electrical energy given to the system : 4.33 hours @ 12 watt = >>>>>>>>> 187056 J => 44677 cal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To rise the temp from 55 F to 146 F, the system need 50 cal/g of >>>>>>>>> water. (Assuming electrodes and recipient are negligible) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Assuming no loss of heat by dissipation, the electrical energy >>>>>>>>> released will rise the temperature of 44677 / 50 = 884g of water. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If Jack use more than 884g of water, we are sure that there is >>>>>>>>> another energy source (chemical or other). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> *From:* ken deboer [mailto:barlaz...@gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* lundi 1 octobre 2012 19:00 >>>>>>>>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Replication of Chuck Sites Nickel/Boron >>>>>>>>> Experiment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Very interesting, indeed. How much water are you using? If >>>>>>>>> everything were 100% efficient, and you were inputting 12 watts/hr = >>>>>>>>> ~40 >>>>>>>>> btu/hr, over 3 hours you would have 120 btu, which theoretically could >>>>>>>>> raise 1 pound of water 120 F. >>>>>>>>> Best regards, kend >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Jed, glad to do it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Small update: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 7 am Temp 55F Start >>>>>>>>>> 9 am Temp 110F >>>>>>>>>> 10 am Temp 129F >>>>>>>>>> 11:20 am Temp 146F >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Outside temp started at 55F and was at 57F at 11:20 am. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll keep running until the temp levels off. At that point, I'll >>>>>>>>>> work on setting up a control cell. The water has turned brown, so I >>>>>>>>>> presume something is also happening with the copper (either in the >>>>>>>>>> nickels >>>>>>>>>> or the exposed portion of copper wire attaching to the electrode). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Jed Rothwell < >>>>>>>>>> jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for doing this! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
