At 08:11 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote:
Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point
that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon.
Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea
was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the
event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our
horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is
within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of
the first ship's horizon.
There is no problem with this location as far as the radial
outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it
started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon
as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward
the far away observers. I asked the question about where the
energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed
throughout space in some manner.
It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time.
I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of
the red-shift, the energy is spread out more.
One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the
horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the
COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know
if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of
space associated with general relativity.
It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of
both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support
that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman
sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the
hole from the outside would become very intense within this region
near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation.
Your question about the existence of black holes is a good
one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the
center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite
convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by
other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have
not other conceivable mechanisms so far.
I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it
reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe
it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming
matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it
red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe
at a distance which is the key.
What do we have in terms of observation of black holes?
Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite
massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that
we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How
does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is
just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would
guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous
gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really
makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted
from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as
it travels our direction to a very large extent.
It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been
observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude
that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know
that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other
than red shift.
Blah, blah, blah.
That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the
space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible
unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it?
No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light.
Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that
fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at
our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that
they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate?
The spectrum would be very different from a red giant.
Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is
productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members
of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for
us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return
to the main topic very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes
and it is relaxing after I finally competed a good model for the
MFMP cell behavior.
It is an exercise in thinking, and in recognizing our limits.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <[email protected]>
To: vortex-l <[email protected]>; vortex-l <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote:
>I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at
>the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed
>to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally
>close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it ...
This is a concept that has the photon rising from the event horizon,
but being slowed until "ceases to exist." But that would violate
conservation of energy, for starters. Rather, the way the event
horizon is described is that no path for light from inside the
horizon crosses it.
This *appears* to conflict with views of the event horizon as being
located differently with different observers.
I really think we need to back up, practically all the way. Why do we
think there would be black holes?
