At 10:37 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Clearly, everyone can see that I started my posting on Vortex-L with
clearly high hopes.
Yes. I confirm that.
Then you mentioned that I started insulting. Did you bother to
mention why I started insulting.
I described the event.
Did you mention that I started insulting people who insulted me first?
I described what happened, explicitly.
If I told you to "F*** yourself", is that an imagined insult?
No, that was a direct insult. I pointed to it. It was also, from a
Vortex perspective, a bit understandable, if still inappropriate.
When people enage in discussion, they expect some level of real
consideration, not views set in concrete and refusing to consider
verification. However, other occasions were not like that.
You clearly take it as an insult when I call allah a moon good,
Not personally.
and yet feel that when people call the Bible a fairy tale, that is
not an insult?
Jojo, you take it personally. That's why you retaliate. There is no
pointing here, by Jojo, to any specific incident. Jojo does this all
the time. He's not specific. To find what he's referring to would
take a lot of work. I think I recall someone calling the Bible a
fairy tale, or something like that, but *it wasn't intended as an
insult.* It was an off-topic, incautious remark, but the person was
not retaliating, and, in fact, most people didn't continue with
negative behavior. Jojo continued to poke at Jed Rothwell after he'd
abandoned the topic, that's covered.
Lomax, my friend, that is why I call you a LIAR.
Eh?
You take parts of history and pick and choose what you want to
support your fallacious history.
Jojo, that's an insult. I attempted to describe the history
accurately and fairly. What you think I neglected I took pains to
include. I pointed to places where you met with incivility.
Even now, when things are starting to calm down, you and SVJ
continue the cycle of insults by continuing this.
I'll point to what you have said again and again: the truth is not an
insult. If anything I wrote was not true, please point to it.
Instead, you just call me a LIAR. That is pure insult, in this
context. You are continuing the behavior.
That's the reason why I despise you and who you are to the core.
Indeed. I tell the truth, and you clearly hate that. Not about Allah
and the Moon God or Obama or whatever, though I've done nothing but
report from research and personal experience on those, but about
*what has happened right here*, and about what it makes obvious.
You take fallacy and lies to the next level without any qualms
about it. You spin and lie and deceive people with your expert use
of long wordy essays and you find no problem with that. Of course
not, why should you; that is who you are. That is what you are
expected to be. That is what you are taught to be.
Eh? I've never been formally educated in Islam, and that's what he
seems to be talking about here. If Islam were a race, his comment
would be racist. Most Muslims are far more polite than I am. I'm
really an American, we are famous around the world for being abrasive.
This is a great example of what Jojo does. He takes a personal
conflict and turns it into a vast battle between Good and Evil, with
the other person, not only individually, but as a representative of
their entire class or race or religion, as the personification of
Evil. In this case, it's been his theme: Muslims lie, it's what they
are trained to do, etc. And, of course, they will never admit it.
Nevermind that every religious text in Islam emphasizes honesty.
Never mind that Jojo's idea that one should lie to "protect the honor
of Islam and the Prophet" is itself a horrific insult, directly
contrary to the experience of all Muslims with regard to their own
religion. People who are fanatics, who might kill for that protection
of "honor," -- they exist -- don't teach or say anything like this.
This is a made-up argument to justify rejecting whatever Muslims say
about their own religion, to allow claiming that the *real truth*
about Islam is whatever extreme piece of crap that these people can dredge up.
Hence, in you, the corruption of islam is seen by everyone. The
same corruption that justifies to the world that it is OK to fondle
a 9 year old little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS, just because other
people are doing it. No matter how you justify it, that's CREEPY.
BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS.
What is obviously false does not become more true by being repeated
over and over. Jojo actually acknowledged that this one was false,
but has continued to emphasize it.
My concern is always, first and foremost, for what is most present.
It's impossible to deal with highly abstract issues like what
happened over a thousand years ago if we can't agree on what is in front of us.
If my history of Jojo's involvement here -- which barely scratched
the surface, I only reviewed the contributions through the first
brouhaha -- is cherry-picked or in error, I invite correction *on
specifics*, or supplying what is missing. There are a few people who
have supported Jojo in certain ways, and I'd suggest that they either
assist him by correcting my errors -- and I *do* make mistakes -- or
by informing their friend, on or off-list, that he's gone off the deep end.
Jojo
PS, But you win Lomax. My Christmas break is almost over. Come
January, you will be left on your own to continue lying about me again.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity
I this post I review the early history of controversy involving
Jojo Jaro on this list. Jojo began with clearly relevant postings
on alternative energy research. That went on for some time, until
May, 2012, when a problem appeared.
Ultimately, this study leads to a clear example of what Jojo does.
He imagines insult, then insults "back," initiating a cycle of
insult, escalating. At the same time, he holds a series of strong
beliefs, apparently not suscpetible to evidence or genuine
discussion, on topics that are likely to be inflammatory if brought
here (and just about anywhere on the internet, except for certain
odd corners), and he readily drops these into discussions.
At 04:46 AM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Yes, I stand corrected.
If calling for the open, transparent and proper accountability of
his qualifications is an insult, then yes, I've insulted Obama.
I will separately address this in another post.
I decided to look back and see if I could find the origin of Jojo's
sense of Vortex and the Vortex community, so I reviewed the
contributions of Jojo to this forum. Jojo has repeated claimed that
he doesn't "start" insulting, but that others insult him, and he
responds with insult.
He made comments early on that could indicate a certain
combativeness, but that is not unusual here. In a post, resent 26
Apr 2012 20:33:31 -0700, in which he complimented Jed Rothwell, he
mentioned that he disagreed on "Darwinian Evolution." (By the way,
source time confirms location in the Philippines, I think.)
However, the post to which he was responding, apparently, did not
mention "Darwinian Evolution," so this must have been a reference
to some other post. Another list subscriber chimed in with some
support for Jojo, but nobody started debating evolution.
But on Fri, 25 May 2012 14:37:50 -0700 (resent time), Jojo sent an
extensive post on "Darwinian Evolution."
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg66036.html
Jojo might think that this post did not insult anyone. But it did.
It was in response to a casual comment by James Bowery:
I hate to think what would have become of Newton or Darwin had they not been
among the relatively independent British middle (yeoman) class.
This comment is, in no way, propaganda for Darwinian Evolution.
Yes, it assumes a certain importance to Darwin, but we need to
understand this: that importance is a routinely accepted fact,
tantamount to a belief, among most people interested in science.
Were there some necessity to attack Darwinian evolution --
difficult to understand for Vortex-l --
okay. But there was not. The subject was not Darwinian Evolution.
Jojo escalated, with a rant on Darwinian Evolution that connected
it with *everyone who accepts Darwinian Evolution.* Read the post!
Jojo knew that he was changing the subject. He knew that it would
be highly controversial. He anticipated "shots." He implied that
he'd not be responding.
Resent Fri, 25 May 2012 16:05:54 -0700, Jojo wrote this:
I hesitated to post my original critique of Darwinian Evolution;
and it is the reason why I refrained from responding about
Darwinian Evolution for so long - that is; that I value this forum
so much, that I do not want to involve other topics in this forum
other than Cold Fusion. I wish people would not use this forum
for propaganda of their beliefs and then exclude other points of
view; just like what Parks, Huzienga, and others are doing wrt to Hot fusion.
However, he then proceeded to "challenge" Jed Rothwell, who had
responded civilly to Jojo. However, Jed noted that Jojo was
"ignorant." That kind of comment is typically taken by Jojo as an
"insult." Rothwell promised to let Jojo have the last word. He kept
that promise for that thread. The discusion of evolution continued
a little, but other readers started to complain about off-topic.
A thread on a cold fusion topic had been hijacked by the insertion
of a discussion of "Darwinian Evolution," based not, as Jojo has
often claimed, on "propaganda," but a mere reference to Darwin as a
man with ideas that were not popular in his time, dicta. In the
process, Jojo set up a *political argument.* Read the post!
Then Jojo started a new thread, specifically on Darwinian
Evolution, resent Sat, 26 May 2012 02:22:30 -0700.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg66051.html
He did not keep to his intention. He continued to poke at Jed. Jed
had answered, and indicated intention not to respond further, and
had not responded further. Others had made small comments. Yet
Jojo's post mentioned Jed five times, in addition to continuing to
quote Jed's original response. The mentions were not complimentary.
Jed Rothwell did not bite. However, James Bowery did, becoming
incensed that Jojo apparently would not consider an experiment to
distinguish between Intelligent Design and Darwinian Evolution. The
interchange revealed clearly that this was a *religious* argument.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg66108.html and
the incivility was quite what can be expected when people argue
religion *without listening.* So now there was a reader who had
"insulted" Jojo, though this was still somewhat within normal forum
behavior. The topic, though, generated a lot of posts, and this was
now heavily off-topic. Vortex-l allows limited off-topic
discussion, and this was straying outside that.
Dave Roberson, who is perhaps sympathetic to Jojo's view on
Darwinian Evolution, objected to the uncivil comment, but also
suggested that Jojo move the discussion elsewhere.
In a post resent Sun, 27 May 2012 10:10:57 -0700, Jojo wrote:
This will be my last response to you. You're welcome to have the last word.
Jojo, however, continued to respond in the thread. I jumped in with
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg66144.html
Ah, I do write lengthy posts! However, this did not insult Jojo,
unless my pointing to his self-revelation in his post would be an
insult. It wasn't. I took Jojo literally and looked at what his
posts implied about him, and described it.
Just be aware, Jojo, that you are describing yourself, better and
more accurately than you are describing Jed, whom you do not really know.
Jojo responded to me, resent Mon, 28 May 2012 02:47:05 -0700. He
sought to move the discussion with me off list. He responded again,
Tue, 29 May 2012 04:39:16 +0800
First you criticize me for "hijacking" this thread (which was not
a hijack because I was trying to draw a parallel and I renamed the
thread.), then you continue to criticize me for hijacking even
though I have stopped responding, then you continue to keep this
topic alive even though I and others have given it a rest.
Here we can start to see a pattern. I had not "criticized" Jojo for
hijacking the thread. The thread, regarding which I'd mentioned
hijacking, was the *prior* thread. Jojo had renamed it (which was
proper, but he left out the OT tag.) What I had done was to respond
to a series of Jojo posts, not yet to the latest one. Now that I'd
seen that, I responded Mon, 28 May 2012 21:16:16 -0400
Jojo, you make up fantasies about what shows in this record. Why would
I expect you'd have anything of substance to discuss elsewhere?
I did not criticize you for hijacking the thread. This is a great
example of meaning created in the mind of the reader.
We were now discussing what happened on-list. Not Darwinian
Evolution, about which we could argue forever. I declined Jojo's
invitation to take it elsewhere. I indicated that I thought the
dicussion was not likely to have value for me.
(By the way, that could be considered my Favorite Debate Tactic,
for on-line discussion, where there is a *complete and accurate
record* of the discussion. It could be considered a test. If
someone is going to firmly insist on allegations regarding the
record, and neither verify them by reference to the record, nor
acknowledge error -- or show alternative interpretation *that
respects the record,* it's hopeless to imagine that we might come
to agreement on difficult and abstract topics. As a "debate
tactic," it establishes the lack of credibility of the other
writer. I'd prefer they not do this. I don't like to "win debates"
through the stupidity of the other. And this tactic can backfire in
some contexts where people simply assume that anyone asserting a
strong position will post false evidence. They take compilations of
evidence as proof of obsession. That happens on Wikipedia.)
Jojo replied, resent Mon, 28 May 2012 20:04:11 -0700
OK Whatever. This will be my last response to you ever. You are
welcome to have the last word and deliver some parting insult or snide remark.
No sense in arguing with Darwinian Evolution fanatics; who's only
interested in blaberring about things he does not know. It's akin
to arguing with Parks regarding cold fusion.
It's quite visible here how Jojo created a highly contentious
discussion, then took offense when it was described
dispassionately. He completely ignores what he did: perceive a
criticism where there was only a description, and then solidify
that perception as if it were a fact, which he will remember, as
people often do when they do this, as a "fact." To be repeated and
relied upon. It's a variation on what James Bowery saw and
responded to. Not interested in *evidence*. I know what's true, and
even if I can look at the evidence by just looking at my own email,
I won't. Not needed. I already know the Truth (TM). This was
guaranteed to end badly, unless Jojo wakes up, which doesn't happen very often.
I did not respond again in that thread. Jojo did twice, tossing in
claims likely to set off anyone with strong opinions about Bible
archeology (what does this have to do with Darwinian Evolution, the
subject?), Gnostic Christians, and just about anyone with knowledge
or established opinion on a wide variety of topics, that happen to
be topics that *often* lead to useless flame wars in internet fora.
What's amazing is that relatively few readers took the bait. Jojo
had the last word in the topic for over two months, when it was
reawakened by Axil Axil.
The last word in this topic was
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg68373.html Jojo
would doubtlessly not like that post, but it probably represents a
very common view among Vorticians. He did not respond.
But he continues to argue Darwinian Evolution, with claims that
anyone who accepts it is naive, ignorant, and hoodwinked. Which is
the large majority of us on this list. Yet he thinks he isn't insulting people!
