On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Edmund Storms <[email protected]>wrote:
> > So, you propose that PdD contains BEC in the lattice as it forms. > Nevertheless, all PdD is not nuclear active > ***I never said ALL PdD would be nuclear active. Just... some of it would be forming BECs. > and PdD has been studied very carefully for the last 100 years with no > indication of any kind of cluster being present. > ***What would be the indications? Would LENR activity be an indication, following Y E Kim's theory? > These facts conflict with your assumption. > ***They do, as long as we know what those indications of a formation of BECs would be. > > > > >> How big can a BEC get before it is unstable in a lattice or living cell? > > ***I don't think BECs have a problem with instability. They are low > energy physical phenomenon. Atoms that participate in a BEC tend to lose > energy AFAIK. It is this loss of energy that is what causes 2 atoms to > fuse, because they get close enough that the Coulomb barrier starts to > collapse. > > > Why does this collapse happen? > ***I think the collapse happens because the 2 atoms lose so much energy that they no longer can repel each other with as much force as they once did. They begin to lose their coherence and identity as individual atoms because the forces that surround them within the BEC are stronger than the forces needed to maintain the Coulomb Barrier. Kinda like a kid joining a cult. > How many d must be present in the BEC before fusion takes place? > ***That is exactly the experiment and calculation I'm proposing. We can work backwards from the measured energy to know how many atoms have fused and how much energy was absorbed to count how many atoms fused. We divide that by the number of atoms available between the Hydrogen gas and the Nickel lattice. > > Kevin: According to the article cited, the energy absorbed by the BEC is > directly related to the number of atoms within the BEC, so the "too small > to detect" energy would be thermal. From the thermal energy detected, we > can proceed backwards to how many atoms were involved with the BEC. > > > Ed: Yes, and the number is huge. How can so many d assemble in any > reasonable time and not be noticed when materials are examined? > ***Let's say it's huge. What is it as a percentage of atoms available? Then we know how many atoms on average it takes to form a BEC that generates a fusion event. > > > > Nice assumption, but what process determines when this happens? > ***The process that might determine when it would happen could be the loss of energy within the BEC, where the interior atoms are losing their identity as individual atoms and becoming part of the BEC. In such a process, it would be similar to an ice cube freezing. It would be the inner most atoms which lose their coherence and energy first. > > > Kevin: It could be for multiple reasons. Here is one way I imagine it > might happen. As the BEC forms the atoms start moving in a very coherent > fashion and a hydrogen atom goes from one boxed in Nickel position to > another, along with all the others. But if one of them "gets stuck" in its > box, as the other hydrogen atom arrives in the box get stuck together. It > would be those 2 atoms which eventually fuse. > > > Ed: A BEC is a unique structure that has to exist as a unique unit or > group. The Ni has no role in its composition. > ***How do you know? > There are no "boxes". > ***Then you take issue with the animation? How exactly does one achieve a loading ratio of 1:1 unless the deuterium atoms are not "jumping across boxes" within the individual lattice structure to the interior? Otherwise, only the outer exterior skin of the Palladium would absorb hydrogen atoms, leading to loadings of far less than 1:1. > > > Or it could happen that 2 BECs form next to eachother, start vibrating and > doing their thing and collide with each other, with 2 of the atoms on the > edge of each participating BEC fusing because the BEC forces are stronger > than the Coulomb Barrier. > > ***No comment here, Ed? > > Or, to use your cracks as the observed trigger, the BEC forms with > hundreds of hydrogen atoms and Nickel atoms but at the surface, the atoms > are in disarray due to a crack. The BEC runs into those atoms which are on > the surface stuck in a crack and this collision causes 2 to fuse. > > > So, you assume BEC form in the crack. > ***Sorry about the lack of clarity in my writing. From what I can gather, we would expect BECs to form in the bulk, and much less on the surface. So we have a situation where a BEC has formed in the bulk, and NOT on the surface. The BEC is vibrating back & forth and some of its atoms collide with surface non-BEC atoms, particularly at cracks where there would be large irregularities in geometry. > Why not assume that a Hydroton forms there? Why invoke a structure that > is known not to form at high temperature > ***Because it IS KNOWN to form at high temperature. It just hasn't yet been tested in PdD or NiH systems. Yet. > while ignoring a structure that can form at high temperature? > ***I'm not ignoring your structure. I'm just noticing quite a few times lately that developments seem to favor Y E Kim's theory of BECs generating LENRs. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoiteXBb1mA&feature=player_embedded > About 3:40 into the animation. I > > > This model totally ignores the consequence of isolated fusion. > ***It's not offered as a model, it is offered as an animation to picture the BEC forming. I'm not sure in the context of your remarks, what isolated fusion is. > This kind of fusion creates a conservation of momentum problem and easily > detected radiation, which is not produced. > ***If BECs absorb radiation (as demonstrated) then that is pretty much taken care of. > > Ed: I suspect these answers are not easy to justify. If the answers are > not provided, this mechanism can not be a solution to the CF problem. > Kevin: Interesting posture. It omits the possibility that BECs are the > solution to the CF problem, but the people suggesting it as the solution > are unable to come up with those answers. > > Ed: All ideas have to be tested against logic and observation. Otherwise, the sky's the limit. ***Unfortunately for me, for Vortex, for you, for science, and for Dr. Kim, he declined to debate you on the merits of his theory vs. yours. Perhaps he would feel more inclined if it were moderated? I would volunteer to moderate, having respect for Dr. Kim's theory and having respect for your obvious contributions and continuing involvement on Vortex. The theories that pass the test are then worth considering further. Otherwise, a lot of time is wasted talking about ideas that have no reality. The BEC, so far, has no reality. ***Dr. Kim has in the past, begged to differ. You yourself, on another thread, said something contrary to this posture. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg81284.html Re: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=subject:%22Re%3A+%5BVo%5D%3ABEC+transforms+photon+frequency%22> Edmund Storms<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=from:%22Edmund+Storms%22>Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:09 -0700<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=date:20130527> That is the idea. However, why would only a few hydrons fuse leaving just enough unreacted hydrons available to carry all the energy without it producing energetic radiation? I would expect occasionally, many hydrons would fuse leaving too few unreacted hydrons so that the dissipated energy would have to be very energetic and easily detected. Also, how is this mass-energy coupled to the unreacted hydrons? The BEC is not stable at high temperatures, which would be present inside the BEC when mass-energy was released. I would expect this release would destroy the BEC, leaving the fused hydrons to dissipate energy by the normal hot fusion method. The concept appears to have many logical flaws. Ed Storms On May 27, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Kevin O'Malley wrote: Then is that an explanation of why Gamma rays are not observed in LENR? If 2 of the atoms inside a multi-atom BEC fuse together, the incoming radiation (to the rest of the BEC) gets subdivided based upon how many atoms have formed the BEC. Right?
