A LENR reaction that produces gammas is useless because of the NRC roadblock.
Rossi bent over backward to rid his system of gammas and for good reasons. On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Blaze Spinnaker <blazespinna...@gmail.com>wrote: > If it generates gamma and its replicated you don't think that's an > interesting contribution to science? > > I think if something strange and unexpected is happening (at least to the > wide world of science) even if it is orthogonal to your purpose, I think it > makes sense to follow where it leads. > > Quite a few great discoveries in science happened that way. > > Anyways, frankly, they need to be more careful about radiation regardless. > Hate to see these really great guys hurt themselves, even accidentally. > > > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> IMHO, working on the F&P cell and the Pd/D reaction is misguided and >> counterproductive. >> >> If we cannot convince nuclear engineers that a Ni/H reactor in a third >> party test works, a F&P cell has nor hope of doing so. >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Blaze Spinnaker < >> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> "The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction >>> is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood >>> fire reaction. >>> >>> A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless." >>> >>> Your analogy is great cause being able to generate smoke is usually what >>> you generally learn to do before you generate fire. >>> >>> >>> "These LENR workers are misguided. " >>> >>> Your ad hominem not so great. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> These LENR workers are misguided. These guys want an indicator based on >>>> nuclear engineering to prove that LENR is occurring to these nuclear >>>> people. This is a misinformed opinion and uneducated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction >>>> is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood >>>> fire reaction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the same way, a hot and vigorous LENR reaction is one without any >>>> gammas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the third party test of Rossi reactor during reactor meltdown, no >>>> gammas were detected. The take away, a vigorous LENR reaction produces no >>>> gammas. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Blaze Spinnaker < >>>> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well no, they have detected gamma rays, but perhaps not yet >>>>> definitively. >>>>> >>>>> From FB: >>>>> >>>>> Gamma - the smoking gun of LENR? >>>>> >>>>> http://youtu.be/ehvRxMYczK8 >>>>> >>>>> We have seen repeatable bursts of gamma during re-gassing of the EU >>>>> cells over the last 2 months and we are preparing a highly sensitive >>>>> Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector NaI(Tl) and a spectrometer to follow >>>>> the evidence. If we can see specific non-background gamma energies, >>>>> repeatably that maybe even correlate to excess heat, then it will be a >>>>> very >>>>> significant find. >>>>> >>>>> The next few months may, in retrospect, make this one of the most >>>>> important blog posts in our short history. >>>>> >>>>> Read the blog post and see more videos here: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The title of the FR post is (annoyingly) misleading. >>>>>> >>>>>> The MFMP team is saying that they are excited about putting a more >>>>>> sensitive gamma ray detector into operation -- not that it has, as of >>>>>> now, >>>>>> detected unambiguous gamma rays. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Kevin O'Malley >>>>>> <kevmol...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> *MFMP detects GAMMA rays in LENR >>>>>>> experiment*<http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/3088346/posts> >>>>>>> *Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project ^ >>>>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma> >>>>>>> * | 06 November 2013. | Robert Greenyer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *"Well, to put it plain and simple - it would mean that we have a >>>>>>> incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR)."* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%7Ekevmo/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gamma >>>>>>> >>>>>>> on 06 November 2013. The smoking gun of LENR? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On January the 14th 2011, Rossi and Focardi gave the first public >>>>>>> demonstration of the low temperature E-Cat to a personally invited >>>>>>> group. A >>>>>>> short time afterwards, Francesco Celani, who was present at the >>>>>>> demonstration, sent a review for the event to New Energy Times. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco Celani record of first public E-Cat demonstration in New >>>>>>> Energy Times >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In this article, it is noted that Rossi and Focardi had a twin gamma >>>>>>> ray detector set up in order to detect e+e- annihilation that was >>>>>>> expected >>>>>>> by Focardi based on previous experiments. The results from that set up >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> not meaningful during the guests time in the room. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Greenyer was keen to understand more about this event, so in the >>>>>>> day following ICCF-18, he quizzed Francesco on the matter. Here is a >>>>>>> fresh >>>>>>> account of that event. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco was sitting down with other scientists and guests waiting >>>>>>> to be called in for the demonstration, they were 7 – 8m away from E-Cat >>>>>>> which was behind a door in another room. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco had 2 gamma detectors with him, 1 very cheap and 1 very >>>>>>> expensive battery operated 1.25” NaI(TI) detection range of 25keV to >>>>>>> 2000 >>>>>>> keV. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He notes that the background in Frascatti is normally around 120 >>>>>>> because of local geology, but in Bologna it is 60, Francesco Celani set >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> detectors accordingly and the assembled group sat there patiently >>>>>>> waiting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Suddenly and for about 1 second, both detectors topped out 1000+ >>>>>>> counts PER SECOND and sounded their alarms (they could not show any >>>>>>> more). >>>>>>> Several of the invited observers considered literally running from the >>>>>>> building as it was speculated that Rossi might be leveraging a >>>>>>> radioactive >>>>>>> source in his experiment. Why such concern? Well, radiation falls off >>>>>>> according to Newtons 1/d^2 law as you can see here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Plugging the minimum 1000 counts per second and 8 meters into the >>>>>>> formula would mean that 50cm from the E-Cat, the counts would be over a >>>>>>> quarter million per second - not good! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, luckily the momentary signal collapsed and about two >>>>>>> minutes later, Rossi came into the waiting room to invite people in to >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> the E-cat saying “the reaction has started”. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco and the rest of the invited guests then went into the room >>>>>>> where the E-Cat was. Whilst in that room and using the NaI(TI) near the >>>>>>> operating reactor, there was a 50-100% count increase over background >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> was erratic. Francesco decided to try and get a spectra from the >>>>>>> detector, >>>>>>> in order to understand what might be going on and so he switched mode on >>>>>>> the detector. Rossi however saw what he was doing, got upset and Celani >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> told to stop the measurements, which he did. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In addition, Celani said that he noted a number of gas cylinders in >>>>>>> the room – but that it would only be speculation to say what they were. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> E-Cats do indeed produce high gamma busts prepping for 'switch on' or >>>>>>> elevated emissions during operation, that might explain challenges in >>>>>>> getting domestic certification and the determination to keep below a >>>>>>> fixed >>>>>>> cop and using staged cascades of small to big E-Cats to create larger >>>>>>> effective COPs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whatever happened that day, Francesco Celani started investigating >>>>>>> surface modified transition metals with hydrogen the following month. >>>>>>> Inverse Square Law >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To help understand the inverse square law we made this little video. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Comparing the 1100 counts per minute at 2 cm from source in that >>>>>>> video to being 8m away, gives around 0.007 counts per minute - i.e. not >>>>>>> meaningful contribution to the 25 or so background. Hopefully this >>>>>>> gives a >>>>>>> sense of why there was such excitement at the momentary signal in >>>>>>> January >>>>>>> 14, 2011. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Celani >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After the end of ICCF-18 conference dinner, Bob found himself in a >>>>>>> conversation opposite Francesco Celani and a prominent government funded >>>>>>> scientist. Celani was told essentially that the levels of excess >>>>>>> reported >>>>>>> were basically not significant enough to avoid being dismissed and that >>>>>>> what was needed as solid evidence of LENR was either transmutation or >>>>>>> particle/ray emission. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco then said, that when he was testing his wire with >>>>>>> Deuterium, he got gamma emissions, the scientist asked if it was >>>>>>> explored >>>>>>> but Celani said no because he was looking for excess heat and actually, >>>>>>> that experiment just produced a clear negative result. Martin >>>>>>> Fleischmann >>>>>>> Memorial Project (MFMP) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the MFMP, this year has largely been about differential >>>>>>> experiments, first the Steel and Glass, then the US dual cells and more >>>>>>> recently, the calibrated dual Celani cells in France. In this latter >>>>>>> experiment, the first of the active wires completed loading and moved >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> apparent excess heat after around six days and stayed firmly positive in >>>>>>> favour of the active cell for more than 30 days. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> EU dual differential cells >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At one point, before the powering of the second wire, the active >>>>>>> cell input power was reduced by around 2.5W. The differential dropped to >>>>>>> zero, indicating that it took 2.5 more watts to raise the passive cell >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the same average external temperature. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rough calculation assuming that only the actively powered wire is >>>>>>> producing apparent excess - which given that the 280L looked like it was >>>>>>> still loading, was a fair assumption. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (2.5W / 42.5W) * 100 = 5.9% apparent excess, this is in line with >>>>>>> other experiments we have performed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2.5W *(1 / 0.275g [approximate weight of wire]) = 9.1W/g >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Celani says the wires he is supplying us should show excess of >>>>>>> between 5W/g and 50W/g. This is in that range. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Putting this in context, in theory 1kg of this wire would yield >>>>>>> approximately 910W. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But that is not what got us excited! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The experiment had an annoying leak in the control cell and since >>>>>>> the cells were bridged by a small pipe for pressure equalisation, >>>>>>> Mathieu >>>>>>> found he had to re-fill the cells every 48 hours or so. This leak was a >>>>>>> bug >>>>>>> he wanted to fix, and indeed, he made the replacement flange, but >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> the cells were producing good data, he stopped short of actually doing >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> repair. That might be a very important decision! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adjacent to the cells he had placed an unshielded geiger counter >>>>>>> that normally registered around 22 counts per minute dropping to 12 and >>>>>>> rising to around 30. In September 2013, he noticed that each time he >>>>>>> refilled the cells, shortly afterwards, the counts leapt up to around >>>>>>> 60-90. He waited for the same process to repeat a few times before >>>>>>> informing the team. With the above knowledge about previous events – the >>>>>>> team started to appeal for a NaI(Tl) and related equipment around the >>>>>>> end >>>>>>> of September. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To our great delight, Jean-Paul Biberian supplied an old, but rather >>>>>>> excellent, LARGE, Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector/photon >>>>>>> multiplier - >>>>>>> NaI (Tl). The downside was that the associated electronics for driving >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> and analysing the spectrum of gamma energies was broken and not >>>>>>> practical >>>>>>> to replace. What to do? Normally this kind of hardware is expensive and >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> just did not have the funds... we were starting to feel the pain of >>>>>>> many a >>>>>>> scientist the world over, great potential experiment, nearly there, but >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> way of seeing it through. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, Mathieu had found a detector driver and spectrometry >>>>>>> solution that might be affordable, called Gamma Spectacular, they might >>>>>>> just have got a solution for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gamma Spectacular website >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then, as if by magic, Marissa Little from Earthtech, Texas contacted >>>>>>> us and introduced that they were starting to re-visit LENR and had >>>>>>> become >>>>>>> aware of our work and was there any way to help us or work together. >>>>>>> Well, >>>>>>> we let them know just what was going on and said that the most important >>>>>>> thing they could help us with right now was to help us find some way to >>>>>>> drive our NaI detector. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Earthtech website >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Working with the extremely knowledgeable Steven Sesselmann from >>>>>>> Gamma Spectacular and Marissa, and a good deal of images over a few >>>>>>> weeks, >>>>>>> we came up with a solution, which, amazingly Earthtech offered to >>>>>>> purchase, >>>>>>> which they did 30/10/2013. We are very appreciative of this generosity, >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> hope that we can make use of everything together in the week starting >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> 11/11/2013. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First we had to see how many M Ohms the detector was, we needed over >>>>>>> 15 and we got 2! - you can see us doing this in these images:- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also discovered it had a ‘C’ type High Tension connection and a >>>>>>> BNC signal out and gain potentiometer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in modern detectors, Safe High Voltage (SHV) connectors are used in >>>>>>> place of the ‘C’ type connectors, we did not need the gain adjustment >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the resistance was way too low, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it was decided by all parties that it would be best to replace the >>>>>>> whole internal electronics so that they would play nice with the GS2000 >>>>>>> Pro, so Mathieu prepared the detector for when we would receive the new >>>>>>> internals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Defkalion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In Defkalion’s latest paper with Dr Yeong E. Kim, they have this to >>>>>>> say about their observation on gammas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3.2 Radiation measurements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As shown in Fig. 4, no gamma rays outside the energy range of 50 >>>>>>> keV–300 keV have been observed from the experiments with the Hyperion >>>>>>> R-5 >>>>>>> reactor (data are from iso-parabolic calorimeter experiment carried out >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> May 6, 2013). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The original paper can be found here Celani - again >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So we wanted to experiment to see if we could re-create what Mathieu >>>>>>> had seen. Mathieu had become less committed to the events as the >>>>>>> experiment >>>>>>> went on as it did not appear that they were occurring at the higher >>>>>>> temperatures with both wires functioning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regardless, we therefore called Francesco Celani this week (first on >>>>>>> Tue 29/10/2013), a good number of times, about his comments at ICCF-18 >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> he provided additional information. Essentially, the wire had previously >>>>>>> been loaded with H2 and he had attempted to deload it by applying power >>>>>>> under vacuum. He then filled the cell with Deuterium and started to >>>>>>> raise >>>>>>> the temperature. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At first there was nothing, but as the mean internal temperature >>>>>>> went over around 100ºC, there started to be a near doubling of the >>>>>>> background gamma count. They were alarmed, but even though significant, >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> was not at a level to be of great concern. This continued until the cell >>>>>>> internal mean temperature passed through around 160ºC whereafter there >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> no significant signal. For about 10 minutes, during this raising >>>>>>> temperature period, there was the increased gammas and then nothing. >>>>>>> Other >>>>>>> than Francesco, there were two observers in the room that witnessed the >>>>>>> event. As said before, the Deuterium experiment did not seem to produce >>>>>>> excess and so was not pursued. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From his paper: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 23.) We observed, for the first time in our experimentation with >>>>>>> such kind of materials, some X (and/or gamma emission), coming-out from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> reactor during the increasing of the temperature from about 100°C to >>>>>>> 160°C. >>>>>>> We used a NaI(Tl) detector, energy range 25-2000keV used as counter >>>>>>> (safety >>>>>>> purposes), not spectrometer. Total time of such emission was about 600s >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> clearly detectable, burst like. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 24.) About thermal anomalies, we observed, very surprising, that the >>>>>>> response was endothermic, not esothermic. The second day the system >>>>>>> crossed >>>>>>> the zero line and later become clearly eso-thermic. Similar effects were >>>>>>> reported also by A. Takahashi and A. Kitamura. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 25.) After about 350000s from the beginning of D2 intake the >>>>>>> temperature abruptly increased and the wire was broken. We observed that >>>>>>> the pressure decreased, because some problems to the reactor gas tight, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> at times of 80000s before. The SEM observations showed fusion of a large >>>>>>> piece of wire. The shape was like a ball. Further analyses are in >>>>>>> progress. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It occurred to us that this temperature dependence, having been >>>>>>> pointed to it, may be very significant. Mathieu had already seen no >>>>>>> extra >>>>>>> gammas at higher temperature - could this explain that? Initial >>>>>>> experiment >>>>>>> to verify gamma emissions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Despite Mathieu fearing that the wires were toasted (the cells had >>>>>>> been running at 70W for some days and were not producing as much excess >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> before), we decided to take the wires down to around 150ºC and try to >>>>>>> recreate what was apparently happening previously and capture it on >>>>>>> camera. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not amazingly conclusive, but the background was around 12-28 and >>>>>>> the gamma pulse shortly after the recharge pushed the PER MINUTE >>>>>>> average to >>>>>>> 40+, meaning a much higher per second pulse. We are looking forward to >>>>>>> having the ability to have much more sensitive equipment that can give >>>>>>> per >>>>>>> second readings and a gamma spectra also. Lead well >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the NaI will be SO much more sensitive than the geiger >>>>>>> counter - we will need to shield it in 5cm of lead on all sides except >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> one that will face the reactor. Maybe make it from 2 concentric >>>>>>> cylinders >>>>>>> filled with lead… however, we need the lead. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Has anyone in France got a load of Lead they could drive over to >>>>>>> Mathieu with? If they have, who fancies casting a bit of lead shielding? >>>>>>> Possibilities to explore Is it really happening? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need to measure it repeatedly and with a better resolution. We >>>>>>> will strive to measure with a Geiger-Muller counter in more controlled >>>>>>> conditions, possibly lead shielding, and with more sensitive NaI >>>>>>> detectors. >>>>>>> We will try to look for total count rates and also the gamma spectrum >>>>>>> measurement. Finally, we will try to make a new apparatus that brings a >>>>>>> higher density of wire nearer to the detector. If it is happening, what >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> it related to? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it being caused by pressure shock? - Test at various pressure >>>>>>> levels and step sizes. Pre-heat incoming gas to same temp as gas in >>>>>>> cell so >>>>>>> as to remove thermal shock. Thermal shock from the cool incoming gas? - >>>>>>> Test with some other cool gas like Helium. Try chilling the incoming gas >>>>>>> more. Hydrogen flux into the wire? - Does a slow pressure rise work >>>>>>> almost >>>>>>> as well as a rapid one? Fresh deuterium in new gas? - Add a little >>>>>>> supplemental Deuterium and see if the gamma signal gets higher. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The EU team can explore: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lower temps and pressures to a few bars. Test with Helium to see if >>>>>>> it is a cool gas thing He has more wires on the way to try it again, if >>>>>>> necessary, as the September/October experiment wires are not so active >>>>>>> after being run at 70W The huge NaI(Tl) detector and electronics >>>>>>> en-route >>>>>>> will allow for much better >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US team can explore: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Putting our Geiger counter and NaI gamma detector near our V1.3 cell >>>>>>> and try adding gas. We currently have two loaded wires in the active >>>>>>> cell >>>>>>> to work with. Try adding Deuterium in small amounts. We currently have >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> heavy water and an electrolysis unit to make some gas. New cell at HUG >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> test this - Replicate our heavy duty aluminum cell that we have a camera >>>>>>> on, but with a full size glass window on the end so we can put it >>>>>>> directly >>>>>>> up against the Ortech NaI detector face. Inside this cell, we put >>>>>>> several >>>>>>> pieces of wires wrapped around mica frames, and then we can stack >>>>>>> several >>>>>>> of those frames all within 5 cm, or so, of the face of the NaI detector. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is the significance? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So why should we be excited at the prospect of seeing controllable >>>>>>> gamma emissions from our experiments? Well, to put it plain and simple >>>>>>> - it >>>>>>> would mean that we have a incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy >>>>>>> Nuclear Reactions (LENR). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Additionally, knowing the energies of any Gamma emissions would help >>>>>>> determine the underlying process and help indicate what power can be >>>>>>> achieved by singular events and overall potential yield. Lastly, it will >>>>>>> help dictate paths for material science, control, stimulation and safe >>>>>>> operation that will take the technology forward. Discussion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the video below, which lasts for around 30 mins, Bob and Mathieu >>>>>>> discuss what led up to the decision to follow the evidence and the >>>>>>> implications. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
