I think you are starting to mix two different things here - django has been in commercial use for some years. Runs info for a news organization.
Your TG story is another thing, but the _fact_ remains (and I've had this private conversation quite recently with you) that solid, well designed, non-trivial, and commercially in-use applications written in web2py are.... what? not advertised? non-existent? Even the _church_ I want to build a free site for asks for "what other sites are heavy users of this?" ---- THAT is a chicken & egg problem. I think focusing on being "loud" will maybe anger, maybe make some Python community people make room. But more importantly, it will waste time and resources, and not really budge Google/Guido. It will do _nothing at all_ for my church situation, much less many, many other such situations for consulting and getting some smaller sites up and running. Effort is much better spent making something substantial, and showing results rather than tutorials to the rest of the world. Sure, some communication is important. But that's not primarily what is needed now. I welcome, of course, other views and experiences - but this (my) experience and observation is not opinion, it is what I _have experienced_. The only thing that is opinion is how widespread and significant this is. What is needed are good designs, and showing useful things, and getting them _used_, collecting statistics. Forget about email campaigns for "airtime" to teach web2py - at least for now. That needs to come by demand (and is). What needs to happen is results, and statistics. Not email. How many people are using pyforums, for example? In what applications? What are limitations found? What is the total user base? Where does someone find that information. And how about the survey tool? Who is using that (the code was lost, so that is a rhetorical question - to make a point - it only exists in executable form as a demo on GAE, so it is ... a demo; how is that organization using it that the original was donated to?) Or reddish? Or.... You see - we show ideas. We need to transition into making things _others (non-developers)_ find useful, and make use of them. This is what is missing. You want certification? Shelve the notion of developer certification (it is of little immediate use, without _commercial demand for developers_ existing first). Instead, lets talk about certification of _applications_ and _modules_ for web2py. A quick grading of the sites listed as running / supporting web2py on www.web2py.com, and I am left without anything I can even proudly show a non-technical church manager for _free_ work. This borders on shameful. "I use web2py; call me for web2py consulting" sites, with one or two pages that are not showing anything but simple content --- doesn't show off anything, is less than sophmorish. Please get these OFF of the listings on the back pages of web2py.com! Better to show some significant student projects. Setup tests so that the appliance that run are current, or are shown (at least) which version they are valid and tested up to. These are the things that need focus on. web2py did registration for pycon2009. It was asked to do that again for pycon2010. It wasn't "great" (UI's, etc. were rushed; the app was written in a month, people hadn't considered all the requirements ... e.g. formal reciepts, etc.) - but it was reliable, and worked well enough (with a little support for users - as is normal for new software that sees the light of "real users" - and THAT is the whole point: how easy it was to adapt in the presence of sudden, large scale, first time use - it was a _great_ experience for us, who supported and extended tables on the live system...). Things that work. Things that people want to use. Things that people are _willing_ to use, _do_ use, and find _useful_. Lack of those is what results in what has been referred to as this "looking like a one-man show..." --- NOT lack of people speaking out (to think speaking out is what is missing would miss a critical point). Mind, having people talk about their experiences w/ web2py (e.g. Brazil conference) is valid speaking out, but it is based on ... you can guess what I'll say ..... EXPERIENCE WITH MAKING SOMETHING INTERESTING WORK USING WEB2PY.... Focus on that. Identify _real_ things that would make your life easier in accomplishing that with web2py (that will drive continuous improvement of web2py). Then take your results, and present about them, email about them, push for _them_ to get into conferences. To your church. To your local python group. To you community. Then get broader. We here are all _interested_ in web2py, but why? Because it's easy to build things. That's right - we can make things with it. Make more and more significant things. Emails to google or pycon.... Pshah! waste of talent and energy in my opinion. Who has built that wiki for documentation? Not significant enough? Ok - then lets use MoinMoin w/ rst default. We need effort on testing, in particular setting up testing of appliances. Is anyone up for updating the appliances app? Probably what we need is a project list where people sign up, and people join in - and where we can visibly critique, and try to make projects more significant, or ensure that the most significant projects get most attention. Good graduate projects, and more. - Yarko On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:59 AM, mdipierro <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think this is a chicken and egg story. Before we compare with > Django, let's compare with Turbogears. According to google trends we > are as popular as they are (we going up and they going down). Same is > true for Cherrypy. Yet TG was allotted 8 hours of tutorials at Pycon > 2009. Cherrypy had one talk. The web2py talks were rejected in 2008 > and 2009. This is despite the fact pycon used web2py for their > registration software. > > We all know what happened. A member of the SQLAlchemy community voted > against the web2py talks based on the argument that I would be doing > advertising and not a technical talk (pretending to forget I am a > prof. and not a salesman). > > Why is that? I think there are multiple answers. > > One is that the python community still perceives web2py as a one man > project. You people need to brag more about it and about your > contribution. > > Another reason is that there are commercial interests behind web > frameworks and the bigger they are the more money have been invested > into them. Google has clearly made an investment into Django before > they ever heard of web2py. Remember that it is never about the best > technology, it always about getting the most users. Right now Django > has the most users and most people will back it up just for that > reason. > > I think it is important to show Google and Guido that there is a > community behind web2py. That can be accomplished with email exchanges > but it should also be accomplished (and more effectively) by showing > off applications. > > Web2py is growing exponentially (whatever system you use to measure > it: email, site visitors, group members), slowly but exponentially. It > will grow faster if Google were to acknowledge us but is not going to > happen until the community makes its voice heard. > > As I said, it is a chicken and egg story. > > Massimo > > > On Jul 6, 12:19 am, Yarko Tymciurak <[email protected]> wrote: > > yes - that was a nice, prominent mention.... > > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Hans Donner <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > And don't forget, web2py was already mentioned in a google appengine > > > blogpost > > > > >http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2009/05/web2py-support-new-datast. > .. > > > > > That's how I ended up here... > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:23 AM, JohnMc<[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > A round about way with the Google is 'summer of code'. If there is > one > > > > or several students making pitches for project acceptance that uses > > > > web2py for the project, then some form of recognition would be > > > > automatic. > > > > > > JohnMc > > > > > > On Jul 5, 10:26 pm, weheh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I never doubted it. > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py Web Framework" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/web2py?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
