Hi Graham, On some issues I agree and on others I disagree. The fact, particularly in the early days, I was the only advocate of web2py. That was bad. Also the way I did it was bad. It was because of ignorance about the ways of the open source community.
One some points I disagree. You say "if [...] Massimo, actually reached out to other projects in the Python community, instead of just seeming to try and take from them, and gave back to them in some way" I am not sure what you mean. Web2py does not include any third party code except for wsgiserver.py, portlocker.py, fcgi.py and some javascript. Almost all the code was written by us. I claim we are giving much more than we took. Moreover even if we included code compatibly with the original licenses I have always contacted the authors of those libraries and asked for permission. think the problem is the opposite as I will explain later. You also say: "And Massimo, you really need to stop calling on web2py users to do comment spamming like that". Perhaps you are not aware of this post: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.web2py/10358/focus=10665 and the following thread. Users suggested it is appropriate to inform them about web2py related news. I never ask users to comment on specific threads. There is one difference between web2py and other projects that some in the community do not like: We try to write all code in house vs using third party libraries. This is a distinct feature of web2py. I know at least one person in particular who really does not like this. In fact, because I decided not to include his module (which is already popular but was not necessary in web2py) he started posting comments everywhere denigrating web2py and that forced me to respond. I also know a few people in the Python community who think that there should be only one framework and only one ORM and who, as consequence, consistently voted against web2py at pycon 2008 and 2009. This is not going to change. Web2py contributors are doing an excellent job. We are not going to replace our modules with third party modules just to make friends. We will do if/when we think the other code is better and does not violate licenses and does not break backward compatibility. I am not bitter vs the Python community despite two pycon talk rejections. I admire this community and I think I have been very clear about that. I start all my talks on web2py by thanking the creators of Django, Pylons and TurboGears for proving excellent frameworks from which I learned a lot (and who has been at my talks can confirm). Yet I do not think the Python community has any reason to be bitter at me (us?) and, in fact, I do not believe this is the case. I believe there is a very vocal minority of people who oppose to web2py because they have invested time and money in other frameworks and who spread false rumors about web2py. When I read something false I respond to them, I will continue to do it and so should members of this community. I think our community is friendly and we you will not find one post from a member of this community that is offensive or denigrating vs other web frameworks. Are we elitists? No, because that assumes feeling superior for something that we have and others don't. In our case we do feel superior for using web2py (vs, let's say using php) but we also give away web2py and thus give everybody else the option to join our group. Massimo On Sep 1, 12:53 am, Graham Dumpleton <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sep 1, 2:33 pm, Iceberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Weheh, I have to say, you are a bad, bad guy. Because when I saw the > > title of your post, I was ready for a fight and rushed to see your > > post. But after reading, I lost the reason to make a heated-up > > dispute. :-) > > I would be regarded as an outsider here, but I am going to be blunt > here and say that you as users of web2py have to temper your > enthusiasm and tendency to attack when anyone says anything that might > seem the least bit critical, as the way it comes across, as seen by > outsiders like myself who monitor many web projects in the Python > community, is not particularly positive and reflects badly on the > web2py community. > > Various people in the wider community liken some of what is done by > Massimo and you as web2py users as advertising and having advertising > pushed down your throat is not something that is appreciated in the > Open Source community. Now I know that Massimo sees it as advocacy, > but that isn't how it is seen by others. Personally some of what I > have seen is more akin to evangelism or fanaticism to an extreme and > like I don't like having mormons knocking on my door trying to push > their religion, I don't look favourably at people trying to promote > things in that way. > > So, if you want to promote web2py, you really need to adjust your > thinking as about the best way of doing that. Trying to do it by > advertising, advocacy, evangelism or whatever you want to call it as > you are doing now, isn't necessarily working. > > One thing that would give much more credibility is if prominent people > in the web2py community, including Massimo, actually reached out to > other projects in the Python community, instead of just seeming to try > and take from them, and gave back to them in some way. And no I don't > mean going out and trying to convert them to your religion. Instead > build your profile through blogging about how to use web2py, but also > blog about other non web2py stuff which is useful to other people who > don't use web2py. Over time people will see you as a knowledgeable > person in their own right who just happens to use web2py. That > positive association can only be of benefit to web2py. You could also > consider contributing code to other Python projects and join in some > of the joint discussions about moving forward stuff like WSGI > component mechanisms. At the moment the web2py community is seen to a > degree as being elitist and looking down at the rest of the Python > community with a measure of arrogance. > > Instead of reaching out and helping, what you instead see at the > moment is attempts at self promotion on places like comments on > reddit. Such comments are usually of the form 'use web2py', but more > often than not have very little substance beyond that as to why web2py > might be a viable choice. In other words, the arguments in support of > we2bpy are quite shallow. And Massimo, you really need to stop calling > on web2py users to do comment spamming like that. I am not really > surprised if reddit had instigated a ban on web2py related posts > because of this, it just isn't something the Open Source community is > likely to appreciate. > > In summary, stop isolating yourself off and instead participate in a > meaningful way with the wider community rather than taking the stance > that you have the best thing since sliced bread and being openly > dismissive of other projects and/or people who may critique web2py. > You also need to shift from chanting that web2py is the best to > showing why it is good. This needs to include to a degree addressing > the perception that web2py is really a one man show. > > Personally, the way the web2py community comes across and the way > individuals carry themselves is why I have tended never to provide any > assistance in relation to mod_wsgi when using web2py. I believe > Massimo over time has identified that how the web2py community is seen > is a problem and has tried to take some positive steps to remedy that, > and why I have started contributing a little, but you still have a way > to go as some of the decisions really just seem to carry along in the > same footsteps. > > PS. I also do not appreciate getting rants in my personal inbox. Feel > free to discuss this here on the web2py list, but I don't want any > hate in my inbox as I know others have got when they have said things > viewed as less than positive about the web2py community. :-) > > Graham > > > PS: It doesn't need a native English speaker to understand your humor. > > I am from China too. :-) > > > Iceberg > > > On Sep1, 10:00am, weheh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I've been using web2py for around 6 months now and I thought I'd share > > > a bunch of reasons why I think web2py is a bad thing all around. > > > > I used to be an expert at all sorts of things in order to build my > > > websites. I developed a whole python infrastructure over a couple of > > > years that mostly enforced a MVC development structure. With it, I > > > could get a new website, like a photo gallery website, roughed-in in > > > under a week. I had a bunch of tricks up my sleeve, written in > > > javascript, css, cookies, AJAX, Apache, MySQL, html, XML, and other > > > arcane stuff. It was a steep learning curve and frustrating having to > > > learn all those different languages, but it gave me big mental muscles > > > and a big ego to go along with them. My websites were reasonbly > > > consistent looking and did a few nifty grpahics tricks to boot. They > > > stood up pretty well to lots of page hits. > > > > Now, I only use what comes in the web2py package and my sites look way > > > more consistent, do more graphics tricks, and use a ton less code. My > > > websites never break and I rarely check in on them to see if they're > > > working. They just work. I can develop the look and feel of the site > > > before writing the database and controller code. The photo-gallery > > > site that took a week to develop ... I can now do in an afternoon. > > > Another site that took me months to develop ... I'm on the way to > > > implementing it in a couple of weeks. I have so much extra time on my > > > hand that I find myself worrying about really dumb stuff, like > > > implementing rounded corners on my boxes or getting just the right > > > shade of eggshell blue in my background. I thought I still had a valid > > > complaint that the web2py doc was thin and incomplete, but now that > > > Massimo has come out with the fantastic rev 2.0 of the doc, even that > > > gripe has been taken away from me. > > > > Now my mental muscles are going flabby and my ego has been deflated. > > > Practically any shmoe can now make an excellent dynamic website with > > > web2py. Web2py is a bad, bad thing. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group. 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