OK, I'll try to be more helpful in my criticism...

Having finally found wicket-stuff, I was able to spend some time
looking at the code that  addresses my needs (hibernate integration
most specifically), and I'm feeling a little more comfortable.  More
importantly, I'm going to have to write sample/framework code and
documentation for my team in order to bring them up to speed.  If I do
so, I will certainly be contributing them back to be integrated into
the documentation in some way.  Off the top of my head, here are some
of the things I would like to see:

A suite of examples that build upon each other in gradual steps,
introducing concepts in a logical order in order to build an
increasingly complex application in an attempt to reduce the slope of
the learning curve.  Ideally, the final examples should be a fairly
usable application, using all the functionality available and
demonstrating best practices.  That's basically the structure of the
"... in Action" books from Manning, whgch has always worked well for
me.  Not trivial to generate, of course, but it seems like whoever
does would be a srong candidate for authorship of "WIcket in Action"
which is a nice resume bullet point.

The widespread use of anonymous classes in all of the example code
make life needlessly difficult for newcomers.  I'm still having
trouble understanding how and when some of the model objects get
updated, although the wicket-stuff code started to clear some of that
up.  Personally, I think the use of anonymous classes should be saved
until after a reasonable understanding of the functionality has been
achieved.

Database integration is fundamental to the vast majority of web
applications, and yet it is totally unaddressed by the current
documentation.  I kept finding reference to tight integration with
Hibernate, but could never find examples or even a description of it. 
That stuff should be put front and center in the core docs.  It was
the piece I started looking for first, in order to evaluate wicket,
and I was unable to find it for days.  The nice thing is that if
examples use a fairly generic DAO abstraction, it should be possible
to provide nice examples that aren't dependant upon any particular
suite of technologies.  Just describe the DAO interface and then use
those them to access standard POJOs.  Obviously, most folks will
probably be doing a Hibernate/Spring thing, so addressing best
practices for combin ing those technologies with Wicket is enormously
valuable, but it should be secondary to providing generic best
practices for dealing with DAO access, detachability, etc.

One of the issues I'm still having is that I know nothing about
Spring.  Since every example I've found uses Spring inversion of
control, they can be difficult to comprehend the flow.  By using a
generic DAO interface, it would be easier to understand the relevant
wicket concepts, and I could then separate hibernate from spring and
wicket.

Another fundamental change - make sure ALL of the examples are listed
on the website, even if they don't all have nice descriptive
documents.  I read through the examples on the home page (hellow
world, navomatic, guestbook, and stockquote), and assumed that that
was all that was available from the examples.  I didn't happen to
click on the link to see the wicket-examples in live action, which
would have exposed all the other available examples, including the all
important component reference.  There is no direct link to the
component reference from the wicket home page.  You have to click on a
link describe merely as 'live action' versions of the examples listed
on the same page, in order to discover it.  In my case, I didn't
discover it until I installed the wicket-examples into my own
container and pointed my browser at it.

The descriptive documentation for wicket-stuff really needs to be
improved.  I hate to say it, but I'm pretty old school.  I edit my
java code in vi in a terminal window. I use CVS from the command line.
I compile my projects with ant.  I can't stand eclipse (it just eats
up desktop real estate and forces me to use the mouse all the time). 
As such, randomly discovering that all of the instructions on the
wicket-stuff website were incorrect is more than a little difficult
and frustrating.  Just cleaning up the instructinos and providing a
decent description of what I can expect to fnd for my trouble would be
REALLY handy.

I still don't know what the wicket quickstart project is or does.  I
don't know use any of those IDEs and there is very little descriptive
text.  If I knew what it provided, I might motivate to install eclipse
to check it out, but given the lack of usefulness of other examples
and documentation, I figured it would be similar, so I never bothered
to investigate that far, since it would have been a large PITA. 
Actually, I just watched the video and it doesn't provide any info
about writing wicket code, beyond how to insert a label, which is
covered by "hello, world."

So, If I winds up using wicket, docs I'm likely to generate for my
team would include

1. hibernate/spring integration (separate from wicket)
2. hibernate/spring/wicket best practices
3. appropriate use of anonymous classes
4. How to use wicket in a command line environment. - maybe I'll try
to create a quick start for the 'terminal' ide.
5. Some kind opf guide to writing new components
6. Some descriptive (non-javadoc) text about how to use each
component.  What should the model object look like, best practices for
use, etc.

But I wouldn't expect these docs anytime soon, and I'll be building a
team and constructing a product first and foremost.  Everything else
is secondary to that.

That said, I could obviously use an engineer with some solid wicket
experience on the team.  Is there anyone out there who'd be interested
in a senior software engineer/architect position at a small, well
funded startup in the Santa Monica area?  There is a strong (optional)
potential for eventual relocation to Europe (Munich) if intereted. I'm
happy to provide more details to interested parties.  A strong
background in scalable, database driven web site development is what
I'm looking for.  Someone with experience in high performance server
applications in general would be extra nice.

--sam


On 11/17/05, Martijn Dashorst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/17/05, Scott Sauyet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It's not that the documentaion doesn't exist.  Much does, and much of it
> > is pretty good.  But it's rather difficult to find.
>
> I'll try to address this issue soon, preferably this week, but I have
> some obligations that are just as important publicity wise for Wicket.
>
> Martijn
>
>
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