Joe, That's actually not what I said. What I said was that we should explode all bundled concepts on Wikipedia into items on Wikidata. I did not say that we should do anything at all on Wikipedia. I am perfectly capable of keeping to the point on a Wikidata mailing list, and I believe that the "explosion of data" as I envision it on Wikidata would be helped by using Wiktionary. Jane
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Joe Filceolaire <[email protected]> wrote: > Jane > > I disagree. > > Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one > wikipedia get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of > the wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias > to follow the same structure. > > Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one > concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy > and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata. > > Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created > whenever we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged' > item will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are > stable and persistent. > > Joe > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them >> on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on >> Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who >> become Wikidatans. Period. >> >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Redirects are cheap. >>> >>> On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged. >>> >>> There is also a category on en-wiki, "Redirects with possibilities" for >>> redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles. >>> >>> I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers >>> of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that >>> might be rather welcome. >>> >>> Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, >>> just what it can point to on the client wikis. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote: >>> >>>> While I agree with the idea of linking between languages >>>> including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use >>>> Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us >>>> try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves >>>> Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics. >>>> Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show >>>> a list of "related topics" which are determined semantically >>>> rather then by spelling. >>>> >>>> Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of >>>> redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make >>>> all the ones that are possibly useful. >>>> >>>> Purodha >>>> >>>> >>>> "James Heald" <[email protected]> writes: >>>> >>>>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>>>> >>>>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>>>> >>>>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>>>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that >>>>> is a decision for them. >>>>> >>>>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to >>>>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in >>>>> that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate >>>>> article in its own right. >>>>> >>>>> -- James. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact >>>>>> that >>>>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are >>>>>> wasting with >>>>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>>>> Jane >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood >>>>>>> what I am >>>>>>> saying. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be clearer: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the >>>>>>> *sitelink* not >>>>>>> the item. >>>>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a >>>>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not >>>>>>> exist" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an >>>>>>> article on >>>>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ >>>>>>> Q18199649 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>>>> linking >>>>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To give another example: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. >>>>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for >>>>>>> tests) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ >>>>>>> index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& >>>>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>>>> family: >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family# >>>>>>> Daniel_Havell >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>>>> redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on >>>>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly >>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an >>>>>>>> disambiguation >>>>>>>> page.. >>>>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, >>>>>>>> it only >>>>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> GerardM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming >>>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>>>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once >>>>>>>>> and for >>>>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to >>>>>>>>> confirm the >>>>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item >>>>>>>>> as its >>>>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client >>>>>>>>> wikis en >>>>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where >>>>>>>>> wiki A >>>>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content >>>>>>>>> all in >>>>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>>>> profession >>>>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to >>>>>>>>> keeping a >>>>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers >>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nope >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, >>>>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a >>>>>>>>>>>> redirect to >>>>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a >>>>>>>>>>> redirect the >>>>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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