Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who become Wikidatans. Period.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote: > Redirects are cheap. > > On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged. > > There is also a category on en-wiki, "Redirects with possibilities" for > redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles. > > I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers of > redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that might > be rather welcome. > > Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, just > what it can point to on the client wikis. > > -- James. > > > > On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote: > >> While I agree with the idea of linking between languages >> including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use >> Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us >> try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves >> Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics. >> Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show >> a list of "related topics" which are determined semantically >> rather then by spelling. >> >> Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of >> redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make >> all the ones that are possibly useful. >> >> Purodha >> >> >> "James Heald" <[email protected]> writes: >> >>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>> >>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>> >>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that >>> is a decision for them. >>> >>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to >>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in >>> that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate >>> article in its own right. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>> >>>> James, >>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact >>>> that >>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting >>>> with >>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>> Jane >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what >>>>> I am >>>>> saying. >>>>> >>>>> To be clearer: >>>>> >>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* >>>>> not >>>>> the item. >>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a >>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not >>>>> exist" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>> on >>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 >>>>> >>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>> >>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to >>>>> the >>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined >>>>> for >>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>> linking >>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To give another example: >>>>> >>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. >>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for >>>>> tests) >>>>> >>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead >>>>> there >>>>> is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ >>>>> index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& >>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>> family: >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell >>>>> >>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>> redirect. >>>>> >>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on >>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. >>>>> >>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All best, >>>>> >>>>> James. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a >>>>>> good >>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia >>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an >>>>>> disambiguation >>>>>> page.. >>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it >>>>>> only >>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>> >>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> GerardM >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical >>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to >>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to >>>>>>> confirm the >>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item >>>>>>> as its >>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis >>>>>>> en >>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where >>>>>>> wiki A >>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>> profession >>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nope >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, >>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a >>>>>>>>> redirect the >>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >
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