Joyce, First, I want to encourage you in your endeavers and in your book. Second, you are precise in writing about the time and effort it takes in publishing a text under the evolving open source schemes. You are to be appreciated for taking the effort to learn about this movement. You probably have a wonderful text helping many students and professinals (I certainly hope I will be able to read it event if not "open source".)
Therefore I also share your concern for this comment. We all are trying to help each other improve and share ideas, not force or intimidate others because they follow traditional publishing paths. We are all "at different Places," Your response says it all and I just wish people were more courteous and accepting so your letter would be unnecessary. My best wishes , Gene On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I feel hurt and angered by your comments. First of all as Wayne has said > in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field of > community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing and > distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of > experience should be shared with others and my students agree! Secondly, I > am a very busy professor at a major university. I do not have time to > search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful > assistance. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and > indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to > separate effective sites and people from ineffective. My publisher/editor > have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule > and very very helpful. At this stage of my professional life, I value my > time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be > able to use the methods you suggest. I am interested in Wayne's suggestion > that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and > also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds > the bells and whistles in that model. I agree that some publishers have > been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals. > Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their > economic welfare should be considered. These are complicated issues that > bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is > not a helpful way to encourage dialogue. > > [email protected] wrote: ----- > > To: [email protected] > From: Stephen Downes > Sent by: [email protected] > Date: 10/04/2010 09:44PM > > Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When > publishers don't do what they say they intend to do > > What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but has > you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma > because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you > received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary > publishing. > > But reanalyze... > > -- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this > true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get > comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends > on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really > don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's > some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services. > -- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your own > if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the > publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their > marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial > input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing > to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, > say, Wikieducator > -- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the > publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other > services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which > are all supported by your writing > > -- Stephen > > > > > On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > Hi Wayne: I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little > confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a > free license. The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a > comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a > very large US publisher. My editor has offered me her time and wonderful > resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my > own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would > like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so > I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a > reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a > writer while still being fair to indigent readers. I hope this question > makes sense. Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER > Foundation. > > [email protected] wrote: ----- > > To: [email protected] > From: Wayne Mackintosh > Sent by: [email protected] > Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM > Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When > publishers don't do what they say they intend to do > > Hi Gene, > > Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers > have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience. > > Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and free > content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- even > publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content. > > The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a > non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a > success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher > requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I > will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a > CC-BY-SA license. > > That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising > resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales. > > We'll see what happens. > > Cheers > Wayne > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Wayne, >> This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it >> 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, >> through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. >> Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne. >> >> Gene >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Dr. Wayne, >>> >>> I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers >>> will come out with an erratum. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would not >>>> post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or oversights >>>> by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical dilemma. >>>> Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal >>>> ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our >>>> national New Zealand MLE list. >>>> >>>> I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a >>>> book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate >>>> for >>>> our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was: >>>> >>>> "More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be >>>> publishing the book under?" >>>> >>>> Response: >>>> >>>> "We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share >>>> Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ >>>> That is the current plan. Any interest in co-authoring?" >>>> >>>> My response: >>>> >>>> "I always check that anything I write is published under a free cultural >>>> works approved license :-) I would love to co-author" >>>> >>>> So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a >>>> tweet. I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA >>>> license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text and >>>> it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions >>>> under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was a >>>> condition of my contribution. (See: >>>> http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've asked >>>> the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my >>>> personal >>>> contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our original >>>> agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing. >>>> >>>> When I submitted my tweet, I wrote: >>>> >>>> "This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under >>>> CC-BY-SA." I did this work during official time, and my employers IP >>>> policy >>>> requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license." >>>> >>>> If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim about >>>> changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the record, I >>>> would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC >>>> license. >>>> >>>> It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the >>>> international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a >>>> listed >>>> price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies. >>>> >>>> Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed under >>>> a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a free >>>> cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher was >>>> free >>>> to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to attribute the >>>> source :-(. For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted are >>>> licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse >>>> them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-) >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Wayne >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Warm regards >>> >>> Anil -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> -- >> With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day >> >> Gene-loeb >> Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> > > > > -- > Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. > Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> > Director, International Centre for Open Education, > Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. > Founder and elected Community Council Member, > Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> > Mobile +64 21 2436 380 > Skype: WGMNZ1 > Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > -- With Sincerest Best Wishes , Gene Gene Loeb, Ph.D. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. 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