Hi Joyce, It's a relief to know that their are so many folk around the world who also overcommit ;-). However, when we add up each small contribution, collectively the whole is more than the sum of the parts!
I agree -- through corporate citizenship most large corporates do recognise their social responsibility and perhaps we can think about meaningful partnerships with the Foundations administered by the large publishing companies as a "think tank" and "experimental space" to generate and engineer new business models for the benefit of all. I'm an eternal optimist - Let's make OER futures happen! Cheers Wayne Living in the deep south, spring is a little slower to arrive -- but the rose bushes are budding nicely, the daffodils in the fields are blooming so summer must be on its way. That said, Autumn is my favourite season in both hemispheres :-). On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > The opportunity to enter into dialogue with a publisher is wonderful...I > don't really believe in luck or serendipity...I believe that in spite of > everything there is active support for justice in the universe. :-) I > think that at least some intelligent folks in the commercial publishing > business understand that they have a social mission as well as a > money-making one. Those who don't take that altruistic view understand that > they must negotiate or perish...so hurray for you and your new colleague. > I have added my name to the discussion list. I don't know how much time I > can give, I have the worst tendency to over-commit and I never seem to > learn...but this global effort is terrific! All the best...I hope the > weather is as nice in New Zealand as it is in the Adirondacks, USA...ah but > you are going into Spring as we are in the midst of Autumn. :-) > > [email protected] wrote: ----- > > To: [email protected] > From: Wayne Mackintosh > Sent by: [email protected] > Date: 10/08/2010 08:51PM > > Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When > publishers don't do what they say they intend to do > > Hi Everyone, > > Joyce -- you have raised a number of significant strategic opportunities > and points of discussion for the OER field and commercial academic > publishers. I agree -- there is definitely a need for open discussion on > these issues and where necessary skilled mediation among individuals and > organisations representing different points of view with regards to emerging > publishing models and the open web. > > Serendipitously -- I've just returned from a large conference for school > teachers and one of the big academic publishers attended one of our > WikiEducator sessions where I demonstrated the wiki capabilities for > customised print-on-demand book publishing. > > The participant was a senior sales executive for the publisher concerned > and she requested a meeting where we compared notes on emerging business > models in relation to open content publishing. We had a very productive > discussion and have agreed to continue talking about emergent win-win > solutions for all involved. We have agreed to arrange a joint meeting with > the national CE for the company to explore these futures together. I'm > optimistic that we will find approaches where publishers can augment their > existing publishing models in collaboration with the free culture in ways > which do not compromise free cultural works licensing. > > I also think there is a need for education and support for both academics > and publishers to think creatively about these emerging futures -- > therefore, I'm keen to include a short section on the open content > "publishing dilemma" in our project to develop guidelines on open content > licensing choices. I think that providing advice on alternatives for > engaging with publishers in the open content world can make a positive > contribution to the social change we are aiming to achieve through OER. > > If anyone on our ist wants to help us out in getting this right - -please > add your names to the participant list here: > http://wikieducator.org/Open_Content_Licensing/Participants . This is > important stuff for the future of education. > > Cheers > Wayne > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:55 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thank you. I think that it is important that we work on these issues >> together as cordially as possible. Big publishers don't particularly like >> OER either as my editor reminded me just this morning...I don't want to be >> caught in the middle but I have been a mediator many times in my >> life...perhaps there is a place for such skills here. Joyce >> >> [email protected] wrote: ----- >> >> To: [email protected] >> From: gene loeb >> Sent by: [email protected] >> Date: 10/05/2010 10:43PM >> >> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >> >> Joyce, >> First, I want to encourage you in your endeavers and in your book. >> Second, you are precise in writing about the time and effort it takes in >> publishing a text under the evolving open source schemes. You are to be >> appreciated for taking the effort to learn about this movement. You probably >> have a wonderful text helping many students and professinals (I certainly >> hope I will be able to read it event if not "open source".) >> >> Therefore I also share your concern for this comment. We all are trying >> to help each other improve and share ideas, not force or intimidate others >> because they follow traditional publishing paths. We are all "at different >> Places," Your response says it all and I just wish people were more >> courteous and accepting so your letter would be unnecessary. >> >> My best wishes >> , >> Gene >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I feel hurt and angered by your comments. First of all as Wayne has >>> said in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field >>> of community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing >>> and distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of >>> experience should be shared with others and my students agree! Secondly, I >>> am a very busy professor at a major university. I do not have time to >>> search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful >>> assistance. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and >>> indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to >>> separate effective sites and people from ineffective. My publisher/editor >>> have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule >>> and very very helpful. At this stage of my professional life, I value my >>> time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be >>> able to use the methods you suggest. I am interested in Wayne's suggestion >>> that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and >>> also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds >>> the bells and whistles in that model. I agree that some publishers have >>> been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals. >>> Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their >>> economic welfare should be considered. These are complicated issues that >>> bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is >>> not a helpful way to encourage dialogue. >>> >>> [email protected] wrote: ----- >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> From: Stephen Downes >>> Sent by: [email protected] >>> Date: 10/04/2010 09:44PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >>> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >>> >>> What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but >>> has you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma >>> because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you >>> received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary >>> publishing. >>> >>> But reanalyze... >>> >>> -- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this >>> true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get >>> comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends >>> on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really >>> don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's >>> some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services. >>> -- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your >>> own if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the >>> publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their >>> marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial >>> input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing >>> to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, >>> say, Wikieducator >>> -- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the >>> publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other >>> services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which >>> are all supported by your writing >>> >>> -- Stephen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wayne: I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little >>> confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a >>> free license. The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a >>> comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a >>> very large US publisher. My editor has offered me her time and wonderful >>> resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my >>> own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would >>> like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so >>> I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a >>> reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a >>> writer while still being fair to indigent readers. I hope this question >>> makes sense. Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER >>> Foundation. >>> >>> [email protected] wrote: ----- >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> From: Wayne Mackintosh >>> Sent by: [email protected] >>> Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >>> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >>> >>> Hi Gene, >>> >>> Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers >>> have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience. >>> >>> Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and >>> free content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- >>> even publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content. >>> >>> The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a >>> non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a >>> success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher >>> requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I >>> will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a >>> CC-BY-SA license. >>> >>> That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising >>> resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales. >>> >>> We'll see what happens. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Wayne >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Wayne, >>>> This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it >>>> 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, >>>> through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. >>>> Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne. >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Dr. Wayne, >>>>> >>>>> I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers >>>>> will come out with an erratum. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would >>>>>> not post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or >>>>>> oversights by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical >>>>>> dilemma. >>>>>> Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal >>>>>> ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our >>>>>> national New Zealand MLE list. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a >>>>>> book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate >>>>>> for >>>>>> our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was: >>>>>> >>>>>> "More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be >>>>>> publishing the book under?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Response: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share >>>>>> Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ >>>>>> That is the current plan. Any interest in co-authoring?" >>>>>> >>>>>> My response: >>>>>> >>>>>> "I always check that anything I write is published under a free >>>>>> cultural works approved license :-) I would love to co-author" >>>>>> >>>>>> So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a >>>>>> tweet. I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA >>>>>> license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text >>>>>> and >>>>>> it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions >>>>>> under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was >>>>>> a >>>>>> condition of my contribution. (See: >>>>>> http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've >>>>>> asked the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my >>>>>> personal contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our >>>>>> original agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I submitted my tweet, I wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> "This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under >>>>>> CC-BY-SA." I did this work during official time, and my employers IP >>>>>> policy >>>>>> requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license." >>>>>> >>>>>> If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim >>>>>> about changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the >>>>>> record, >>>>>> I would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC >>>>>> license. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the >>>>>> international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a >>>>>> listed >>>>>> price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed >>>>>> under a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a >>>>>> free cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher >>>>>> was >>>>>> free to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to >>>>>> attribute >>>>>> the source :-(. For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted >>>>>> are >>>>>> licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse >>>>>> them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Wayne >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>>>>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>>>>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>>>>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>>>>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>>>>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>>>>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>>>>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>>>>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Warm regards >>>>> >>>>> Anil -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day >>>> >>>> Gene-loeb >>>> Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> With Sincerest Best Wishes , >> >> Gene >> Gene Loeb, Ph.D. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> > > > > -- > Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. > Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org> > Director, International Centre for Open Education, > Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. > Founder and elected Community Council Member, > Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20> > Mobile +64 21 2436 380 > Skype: WGMNZ1 > Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > -- Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org> Director, International Centre for Open Education, Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. Founder and elected Community Council Member, Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 Skype: WGMNZ1 Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]
