Joyce, Thanks for your wonderful letter. I really am looking forward to the book. I may look at the student one for now. I realize all of the time involved in writing anything these days. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to communicating to you more. I am a retired professor of education in a Chicago suburb now working on gerontology issues and especially technology for elderly trying to make a simple web, center for technology and mental health of elderly-looking for funding. I also am editor of a special issue of the Journal of community Informatics on elderly and technology. Community informatics is a part of community organizing and we can discuss that in the future. Best Wishes., Gene
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > The title is Community Organizing Theory and Practice. I am working on > the third draft. I am using the second draft with my students (printed by > our college bookstore for $30). You could order that draft from them > (SUNY/Empire State College bookstore)...but it is not nearly as good as the > version I am working on now...thanks in large part to the feedback I have > gotten from my editor at Allyn and Bacon, from my students and from my grown > daughter, a recent community and human services graduate who is working for > me as an editorial assistant. I will be completing the writing phase > during a six month sabbatical I have coming up...the final polished work is > due to Allyn and Bacon in February, 2012 and will probably be offered as a > polished text for courses in September, 2012. It is taking so long because > while I have a very interesting job, it is very time consuming...and have to > literally squeeze out time to write. This time squeeze is one reason I > have appreciated the resources Allyn and Bacon have provided. Like most > academics I am not writing for money, but because I have forty years of > experience and reflection to share as well as some need to show publications > for promotion (I already have tenure). :-) > > [email protected] wrote: ----- > > To: [email protected] > From: gene loeb > Sent by: [email protected] > Date: 10/06/2010 07:52PM > > Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When > publishers don't do what they say they intend to do > > Joyce, > after all of this suspense, Iwould like to read the bopok What is the title > and where can we get it? > Gene > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thank you. I think that it is important that we work on these issues >> together as cordially as possible. Big publishers don't particularly like >> OER either as my editor reminded me just this morning...I don't want to be >> caught in the middle but I have been a mediator many times in my >> life...perhaps there is a place for such skills here. Joyce >> >> [email protected] wrote: ----- >> >> To: [email protected] >> From: gene loeb >> Sent by: [email protected] >> Date: 10/05/2010 10:43PM >> >> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >> >> Joyce, >> First, I want to encourage you in your endeavers and in your book. >> Second, you are precise in writing about the time and effort it takes in >> publishing a text under the evolving open source schemes. You are to be >> appreciated for taking the effort to learn about this movement. You probably >> have a wonderful text helping many students and professinals (I certainly >> hope I will be able to read it event if not "open source".) >> >> Therefore I also share your concern for this comment. We all are trying >> to help each other improve and share ideas, not force or intimidate others >> because they follow traditional publishing paths. We are all "at different >> Places," Your response says it all and I just wish people were more >> courteous and accepting so your letter would be unnecessary. >> >> My best wishes >> , >> Gene >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I feel hurt and angered by your comments. First of all as Wayne has >>> said in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field >>> of community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing >>> and distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of >>> experience should be shared with others and my students agree! Secondly, I >>> am a very busy professor at a major university. I do not have time to >>> search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful >>> assistance. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and >>> indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to >>> separate effective sites and people from ineffective. My publisher/editor >>> have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule >>> and very very helpful. At this stage of my professional life, I value my >>> time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be >>> able to use the methods you suggest. I am interested in Wayne's suggestion >>> that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and >>> also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds >>> the bells and whistles in that model. I agree that some publishers have >>> been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals. >>> Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their >>> economic welfare should be considered. These are complicated issues that >>> bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is >>> not a helpful way to encourage dialogue. >>> >>> [email protected] wrote: ----- >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> From: Stephen Downes >>> Sent by: [email protected] >>> Date: 10/04/2010 09:44PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >>> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >>> >>> What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but >>> has you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma >>> because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you >>> received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary >>> publishing. >>> >>> But reanalyze... >>> >>> -- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this >>> true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get >>> comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends >>> on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really >>> don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's >>> some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services. >>> -- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your >>> own if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the >>> publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their >>> marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial >>> input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing >>> to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, >>> say, Wikieducator >>> -- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the >>> publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other >>> services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which >>> are all supported by your writing >>> >>> -- Stephen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wayne: I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little >>> confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a >>> free license. The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a >>> comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a >>> very large US publisher. My editor has offered me her time and wonderful >>> resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my >>> own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would >>> like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so >>> I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a >>> reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a >>> writer while still being fair to indigent readers. I hope this question >>> makes sense. Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER >>> Foundation. >>> >>> [email protected] wrote: ----- >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> From: Wayne Mackintosh >>> Sent by: [email protected] >>> Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >>> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >>> >>> Hi Gene, >>> >>> Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers >>> have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience. >>> >>> Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and >>> free content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- >>> even publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content. >>> >>> The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a >>> non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a >>> success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher >>> requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I >>> will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a >>> CC-BY-SA license. >>> >>> That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising >>> resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales. >>> >>> We'll see what happens. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Wayne >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Wayne, >>>> This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it >>>> 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, >>>> through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. >>>> Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne. >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Dr. Wayne, >>>>> >>>>> I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers >>>>> will come out with an erratum. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would >>>>>> not post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or >>>>>> oversights by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical >>>>>> dilemma. >>>>>> Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal >>>>>> ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our >>>>>> national New Zealand MLE list. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a >>>>>> book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate >>>>>> for >>>>>> our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was: >>>>>> >>>>>> "More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be >>>>>> publishing the book under?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Response: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share >>>>>> Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ >>>>>> That is the current plan. Any interest in co-authoring?" >>>>>> >>>>>> My response: >>>>>> >>>>>> "I always check that anything I write is published under a free >>>>>> cultural works approved license :-) I would love to co-author" >>>>>> >>>>>> So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a >>>>>> tweet. I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA >>>>>> license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text >>>>>> and >>>>>> it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions >>>>>> under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was >>>>>> a >>>>>> condition of my contribution. (See: >>>>>> http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've >>>>>> asked the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my >>>>>> personal contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our >>>>>> original agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I submitted my tweet, I wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> "This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under >>>>>> CC-BY-SA." I did this work during official time, and my employers IP >>>>>> policy >>>>>> requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license." >>>>>> >>>>>> If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim >>>>>> about changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the >>>>>> record, >>>>>> I would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC >>>>>> license. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the >>>>>> international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a >>>>>> listed >>>>>> price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed >>>>>> under a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a >>>>>> free cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher >>>>>> was >>>>>> free to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to >>>>>> attribute >>>>>> the source :-(. For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted >>>>>> are >>>>>> licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse >>>>>> them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Wayne >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>>>>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>>>>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>>>>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>>>>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>>>>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>>>>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>>>>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>>>>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Warm regards >>>>> >>>>> Anil -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day >>>> >>>> Gene-loeb >>>> Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> With Sincerest Best Wishes , >> >> Gene >> Gene Loeb, Ph.D. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> > > > > -- > With Sincerest Best Wishes , > > Gene > Gene Loeb, Ph.D. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > -- With Sincerest Best Wishes , Gene Gene Loeb, Ph.D. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. 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