Joyce, after all of this suspense, Iwould like to read the bopok What is the title and where can we get it? Gene
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you. I think that it is important that we work on these issues > together as cordially as possible. Big publishers don't particularly like > OER either as my editor reminded me just this morning...I don't want to be > caught in the middle but I have been a mediator many times in my > life...perhaps there is a place for such skills here. Joyce > > [email protected] wrote: ----- > > To: [email protected] > From: gene loeb > Sent by: [email protected] > Date: 10/05/2010 10:43PM > > Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When > publishers don't do what they say they intend to do > > Joyce, > First, I want to encourage you in your endeavers and in your book. > Second, you are precise in writing about the time and effort it takes in > publishing a text under the evolving open source schemes. You are to be > appreciated for taking the effort to learn about this movement. You probably > have a wonderful text helping many students and professinals (I certainly > hope I will be able to read it event if not "open source".) > > Therefore I also share your concern for this comment. We all are trying to > help each other improve and share ideas, not force or intimidate others > because they follow traditional publishing paths. We are all "at different > Places," Your response says it all and I just wish people were more > courteous and accepting so your letter would be unnecessary. > > My best wishes > , > Gene > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I feel hurt and angered by your comments. First of all as Wayne has said >> in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field of >> community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing and >> distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of >> experience should be shared with others and my students agree! Secondly, I >> am a very busy professor at a major university. I do not have time to >> search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful >> assistance. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and >> indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to >> separate effective sites and people from ineffective. My publisher/editor >> have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule >> and very very helpful. At this stage of my professional life, I value my >> time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be >> able to use the methods you suggest. I am interested in Wayne's suggestion >> that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and >> also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds >> the bells and whistles in that model. I agree that some publishers have >> been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals. >> Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their >> economic welfare should be considered. These are complicated issues that >> bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is >> not a helpful way to encourage dialogue. >> >> [email protected] wrote: ----- >> >> To: [email protected] >> From: Stephen Downes >> Sent by: [email protected] >> Date: 10/04/2010 09:44PM >> >> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >> >> What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but >> has you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma >> because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you >> received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary >> publishing. >> >> But reanalyze... >> >> -- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this >> true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get >> comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends >> on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really >> don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's >> some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services. >> -- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your >> own if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the >> publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their >> marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial >> input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing >> to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, >> say, Wikieducator >> -- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the >> publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other >> services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which >> are all supported by your writing >> >> -- Stephen >> >> >> >> >> On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> Hi Wayne: I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little >> confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a >> free license. The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a >> comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a >> very large US publisher. My editor has offered me her time and wonderful >> resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my >> own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would >> like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so >> I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a >> reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a >> writer while still being fair to indigent readers. I hope this question >> makes sense. Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER >> Foundation. >> >> [email protected] wrote: ----- >> >> To: [email protected] >> From: Wayne Mackintosh >> Sent by: [email protected] >> Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM >> Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When >> publishers don't do what they say they intend to do >> >> Hi Gene, >> >> Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers >> have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience. >> >> Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and free >> content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- even >> publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content. >> >> The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a >> non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a >> success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher >> requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I >> will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a >> CC-BY-SA license. >> >> That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising >> resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales. >> >> We'll see what happens. >> >> Cheers >> Wayne >> >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Wayne, >>> This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it >>> 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, >>> through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. >>> Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne. >>> >>> Gene >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Dr. Wayne, >>>> >>>> I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers >>>> will come out with an erratum. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would >>>>> not post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or >>>>> oversights by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical >>>>> dilemma. >>>>> Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal >>>>> ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our >>>>> national New Zealand MLE list. >>>>> >>>>> I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a >>>>> book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate >>>>> for >>>>> our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was: >>>>> >>>>> "More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be >>>>> publishing the book under?" >>>>> >>>>> Response: >>>>> >>>>> "We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share >>>>> Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ >>>>> That is the current plan. Any interest in co-authoring?" >>>>> >>>>> My response: >>>>> >>>>> "I always check that anything I write is published under a free >>>>> cultural works approved license :-) I would love to co-author" >>>>> >>>>> So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a >>>>> tweet. I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA >>>>> license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text and >>>>> it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions >>>>> under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was a >>>>> condition of my contribution. (See: >>>>> http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've >>>>> asked the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my >>>>> personal contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our >>>>> original agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing. >>>>> >>>>> When I submitted my tweet, I wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under >>>>> CC-BY-SA." I did this work during official time, and my employers IP >>>>> policy >>>>> requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license." >>>>> >>>>> If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim >>>>> about changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the >>>>> record, >>>>> I would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC >>>>> license. >>>>> >>>>> It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the >>>>> international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a >>>>> listed >>>>> price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies. >>>>> >>>>> Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed >>>>> under a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a >>>>> free cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher >>>>> was >>>>> free to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to attribute >>>>> the source :-(. For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted >>>>> are >>>>> licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse >>>>> them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Wayne >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >>>>> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >>>>> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >>>>> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >>>>> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >>>>> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >>>>> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >>>>> Skype: WGMNZ1 >>>>> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Warm regards >>>> >>>> Anil -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>>> To visit the discussion forum: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day >>> >>> Gene-loeb >>> Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >>> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >>> To visit the discussion forum: >>> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Wayne Mackintosh <http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg>, Ph.D. >> Director OER Foundation <http://www.oerfoundation.org/> >> Director, International Centre for Open Education, >> Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. >> Founder and elected Community Council Member, >> Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org%20/> >> Mobile +64 21 2436 380 >> Skype: WGMNZ1 >> Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "WikiEducator" group. >> To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org >> To visit the discussion forum: >> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> > > > > -- > With Sincerest Best Wishes , > > Gene > Gene Loeb, Ph.D. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > -- With Sincerest Best Wishes , Gene Gene Loeb, Ph.D. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. 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