Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do

Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:02:09 -0700

The title is Community Organizing Theory and Practice.   I am working on the third draft.  I am using the second draft with my students (printed by our college bookstore for $30).  You could order that draft from them (SUNY/Empire State College bookstore)...but it is not nearly as good as the version I am working on now...thanks in large part to the feedback I have gotten from my editor at Allyn and Bacon, from my students and from my grown daughter, a recent community and human services graduate who is working for me as an editorial assistant.   I will be completing the writing phase during a six month sabbatical I have coming up...the final polished work is due to Allyn and Bacon in February, 2012 and will probably be offered as a polished text for courses in September, 2012.   It is taking so long because while I have a very interesting job, it is very time consuming...and have to literally squeeze out time to write.   This time squeeze is one reason I have appreciated the resources Allyn and Bacon have provided.   Like most academics I am not writing for money, but because I have forty years of experience and reflection to share as well as some need to show publications for promotion (I already have tenure).   :-)

[email protected] wrote: -----
To: [email protected]
From: gene loeb
Sent by: [email protected]
Date: 10/06/2010 07:52PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do

Joyce,
after all of this suspense, Iwould like to read the bopok What is the title and where can we get  it?
Gene

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you.  I think that it is important that we work on these issues together as cordially as possible.   Big publishers don't particularly like OER either as my editor reminded me just this morning...I don't want to be caught in the middle but I have been a mediator many times in my life...perhaps there is a place for such skills here.   Joyce

-----[email protected] wrote: -----
To: [email protected]
From: gene loeb
Sent by: [email protected]
Date: 10/05/2010 10:43PM

Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do

Joyce,
First, I want to encourage you in your endeavers and in your book.
Second, you are precise in writing about the time and effort it takes in publishing a text under the evolving open source schemes. You are to be appreciated for taking the effort to learn about this movement. You probably have a wonderful text helping many students and professinals (I certainly hope I will be able to read it event if not "open source".)
 
Therefore I also share your concern for this comment.  We all are trying to help each other improve and share ideas, not force  or intimidate others because they follow traditional publishing paths. We are all "at different Places," Your response says it all and I just wish people were more courteous and accepting so your letter would be unnecessary.
 
My best wishes
,
Gene
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
 
 
I feel hurt and angered by your comments.   First of all as Wayne has said in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field of community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing and distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of experience should be shared with others and my students agree!  Secondly, I am a very busy professor at a major university.  I do not have time to search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful assistance.  In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to separate effective sites and people from ineffective.  My publisher/editor have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule and very very helpful.  At this stage of my professional life, I value my time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be able to use the methods you suggest.   I am interested in Wayne's suggestion that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds the bells and whistles in that model.  I agree that some publishers have been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals.   Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their economic welfare should be considered.   These are complicated issues that bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is not a helpful way to encourage dialogue. 

-----[email protected] wrote: -----
To: [email protected]
From: Stephen Downes
Date: 10/04/2010 09:44PM

Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do

What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but has you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary publishing.

But reanalyze...

-- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services.
-- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your own if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, say, Wikieducator
-- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which are all supported by your writing

-- Stephen




On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Wayne:   I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a free license.  The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a very large US publisher.   My editor has offered me her time and wonderful resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a writer while still being fair to indigent readers.    I hope this question makes sense.   Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER Foundation.  

-----[email protected] wrote: -----
To: [email protected]
From: Wayne Mackintosh
Sent by: [email protected]
Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience.

Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and free content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- even publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content.

The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a CC-BY-SA license.

That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales.

We'll see what happens.

Cheers
Wayne

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <[email protected]> wrote:
Wayne,
This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne.

Gene


On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Dr. Wayne,
 
I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers will come out with an erratum.

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would not post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or oversights by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical dilemma. Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our national New Zealand MLE list.

I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate for our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was:

"More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be publishing the book under?"

Response:

"We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
That is the current plan.  Any interest in co-authoring?"

My response:

"I always check that anything I write is published under a free cultural works approved license :-)  I would love to co-author"

So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a tweet.  I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text and it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was a condition of my contribution. (See:  http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've asked the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my personal contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our original agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing.

When I submitted my tweet, I wrote:

"This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under CC-BY-SA."  I did this work during official time, and my employers IP policy requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license."

If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim about changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the record, I would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC license. 

It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a listed price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies.

Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed under a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a free cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher was free to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to attribute the source :-(.  For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted are licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-)

Cheers
Wayne
 









--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director OER Foundation
Director, International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Founder and elected Community Council Member, Wikieducator
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]



--
Warm regards

Anil --
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]



--
With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day

Gene-loeb
Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]



--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director OER Foundation
Director, International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Founder and elected Community Council Member, Wikieducator
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]



--
With Sincerest Best Wishes ,

Gene
Gene Loeb, Ph.D.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]



--
With Sincerest Best Wishes ,

Gene
Gene Loeb, Ph.D.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "WikiEducator" group.
To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org
To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]

Reply via email to