Here is another such example. Jimmy Wales has tonight told[1] a volunteer ---o0o---
First the idea that Wikidata could be used to "construct articles" with "no need for editors to edit actual article content" is pretty absurd from a technological point of view. Major breakthroughs in AI would be necessary. That isn't what is intended at all, obviously. ---o0o--- So "major breakthroughs in AI" are necessary? This is 2016, and the page "API:Presenting Wikidata knowledge"[2] on MediaWiki specifically points out: ---o0o--- * Reasonator[3] and Autodesc[4] are tools that create machine-generated articles and short descriptions about Wikidata items. ---o0o--- Both the Reasonator and Autodesc pages feature what seem to be examples of such articles: https://tools.wmflabs.org/autodesc?q=Q1339&links=wikipedia&lang=en&mode=long&format=html&redlinks=reasonator https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q1339 The just concluded strategy consultation[5] specifically highlighted the idea to "Explore ways to scale machine-generated, machine-verified and machine-assisted content." Now, I've got nothing against these ideas in principle. However, like Pete, I am absolutely astonished at the sheer number of self-contradictory messages coming from the WMF with regard to all of this. Could this please stop? Andreas [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=705170990 [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Presenting_Wikidata_knowledge#See_also [3] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/ [4] https://tools.wmflabs.org/autodesc [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2016_Strategy/Knowledge On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> wrote: > Lila, > > The confusion, as you will surely agree, is understandable given the > scattershot and often contradictory information provided by WMF to > differing audiences. Above all, I hope the next volley of communication > will address the central contradictions between what you and Jimmy Wales > publicly stated prior to the publication of the grant application, and the > words in the application itself. > > I will quote these below, but first to underscore the importance: when Siko > questioned the integrity of the organization, these are the apparent > willful lies that came to mind for me. > > -Pete > [[User:Peteforsyth]] > > Quotes: > > "To make this very clear: no one in top positions has proposed or is > proposing that WMF should get into the general "searching" or to try to "be > google". It's an interesting hypothetical which has not been part of any > serious strategy proposal, nor even discussed at the board level, nor > proposed to the board by staff, nor a part of any grant, etc. It's a total > lie." -J. Wales, Feb. 1 > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=704421946 > > "Let’s all treat each other withcivility > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Civility> and etiquette > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Etiquette>, and see if we can > collaborate > to build a consensus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Consensus> on the > WMF’s project direction to help readers discover the high quality content > and knowledge our editors are creating." - L. Tretikov, Feb. 1 > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&oldid=15302201 > > "Knowledge Engine By Wikipedia is a federated knowledge engine that will > give users the most reliable and most trustworthy public information > channel on the web, applying fundamentals of transparent Wiki-based systems > to surfacing the most relevant and important information." Grant > application, August 2015 > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-10/In_focus > On Feb 15, 2016 2:35 AM, "Lila Tretikov" <l...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > > > Hi Gnangarra, > > > > Thank you for forwarding, the authors of the article seem to be confused > > about the nature of the project. Our Comms team is working to clarify > this. > > Please expect to see something from us in next few days. > > > > Lila > > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > FYI making main stream media > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-15/wikimedia-foundation-aims-to-take-on-google-in-search/7168840 > > > > > > On 14 February 2016 at 00:49, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > Anne, we're talking about almost the same thing, but not exactly. I > say > > > > "advised" you say "consulted". "Consulted" implies soliciting or > > > expecting > > > > some kind of response or engagement - probably > > > > approval/disapproval/critique/input. "Advised" means they got the > > memo. I > > > > think "advised" is enough, and if the board wants more engagement, > they > > > can > > > > initiate it - presuming the notification is clear and comprehensive, > of > > > > course. > > > > > > > > Anthony Cole > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm not sure about that, Anthony. By "consulted", I would > mean > > > > > something to the effect of "We're looking at applying to XX for a > > grant > > > > of > > > > > $YYY to do ZZZ" and asking the Board if they would be likely to > agree > > > to > > > > > accept such a grant if the application is successful. The grant > > > > > application, evaluation and approval process is costly in both time > > and > > > > > resources, and for both the applicant and the grantmaker. Being > > > informed > > > > > that a grant has been approved sounds more like a fait accompli > > > situation > > > > > for the Board - they look petty and ungrateful if they say no, even > > if > > > > they > > > > > don't think it was a reasonable grant application. In this case, > > we're > > > > > only dealing with $250,000. What if this was $1 million? $10 > > million? > > > > > > > > > > I think it is healthier for everyone if the Board is properly > > consulted > > > > > before the application is submitted. (And again, I note that we > > don't > > > > know > > > > > how much was actually requested in this case, only what was > granted.) > > > > > > > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 21:23, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Anne, regarding: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Since the Board must approve acceptance of any donations over > > > $100,000 > > > > > > USD, it seems to be obvious that they should be consulted and > > > possibly > > > > > > should actively approve any grant applications where the dollar > > value > > > > > > sought is higher than that amount." > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure that the board should be *consulted* ahead of such > > > > > > applications' or should prior-approve all such applications. That > > > > seems a > > > > > > bit like micromanagement. But it makes sense to me for the board > to > > > be > > > > > > *advised > > > > > > *of such applications and when they're being actively > contemplated > > or > > > > > > prepared. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony Cole > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way, Gerard. I personally > > > would > > > > > like > > > > > > > to feel more assured that the WMF is looking into the longer > > future > > > > and > > > > > > > actively plannning for the day that donations no longer > support a > > > > large > > > > > > > staff doing lots of things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am concerned today that the team specifically tasked to work > > > > closely > > > > > > with > > > > > > > so many elements of the community has lost 7% of its staff, and > > 30% > > > > of > > > > > > its > > > > > > > leaders, in a single week. This should be a concern in any > > > > > organization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With respect to the Knight grant - I know that many times grant > > > > > > > applications are made for considerably more than is given, and > I > > am > > > > > > > interested to know how much the WMF requested in the first > place. > > > I > > > > > > would > > > > > > > also like to know whether or not the Board was formally advised > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > request before it was submitted. Since the Board must approve > > > > > acceptance > > > > > > > of any donations over $100,000 USD, it seems to be obvious that > > > they > > > > > > should > > > > > > > be consulted and possibly should actively approve any grant > > > > > applications > > > > > > > where the dollar value sought is higher than that amount. I > > don't > > > > > > believe > > > > > > > the current policies require advance approval or even advance > > > > > > notification, > > > > > > > though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 03:54, Gerard Meijssen < > > > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > > > > I am not complaining. I point out that all this huha does not > > get > > > > us > > > > > > > > anywhere. I am not afraid to give an opinion and I am not > > afraid > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > contrarian when I think it makes sense. Yes, things happened > > that > > > > > were > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > beautiful. They are not what upset me. What upsets me is that > > > > people > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > Siko and Anna are leaving. Because they are part of "my" > > > Wikimedia > > > > > > > > Foundation. What upsets me is that I routinely use Magnus's > > tool > > > > and > > > > > > > > process hundreds of thousands of records and am to understand > > > that > > > > > > > official > > > > > > > > query is stunted and does not allow for this "because it was > > not > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > design" and it is then pointed out that it takes money to > solve > > > > > this... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that baying for blood is not what helps us > forward. > > > > What > > > > > I > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > know is that when sheer negativity is not coupled with an > > ability > > > > to > > > > > > stop > > > > > > > > and move forward, we will get in a downward spiral. I fault > > Pine > > > > for > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > being able to stop. What I wish for is for people like Anna > and > > > > Siko > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > money for our environment and not for an endowment. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:35, Michel Vuijlsteke < > > > wikipe...@zog.org > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerard, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for this mail. For me personally, your > > > complaining > > > > is > > > > > > > > > achieving exactly the opposite of what you think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds as if you'd much rather prefer to stick your head > > in > > > > the > > > > > > sand > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > hope things will blow over. "Move along, nothing to see > here > > -- > > > > oh > > > > > > > look! > > > > > > > > > something positive over there!" is not going to solve > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:24, Gerard Meijssen < > > > > > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > > > > > > Pine as you are talking about "self inflicting wounds" I > > take > > > > it > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > not talking in your personal capacity. When is it enough > > for > > > > you? > > > > > > > When > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > you going to talk about positive things, things that will > > > move > > > > us > > > > > > > > > forward. > > > > > > > > > > Why ask for blood and more blood? What is it that you > hope > > to > > > > > > > achieve? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who do you represent in this unending litany of > negativity > > > and > > > > > what > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > you achieved in this way? When Lila was engaged in her > > role, > > > > she > > > > > > was > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > direct in a different direction and she is doing that. > You > > > may > > > > > not > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > and that is ok. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 08:43, Pine W < > wiki.p...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dariusz, thanks for continuing to engage here. Besides > > the > > > > good > > > > > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > > > > that others have asked, I'll add a few: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. If the Knowledge Engine is such an important > project, > > > why > > > > is > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16 > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. I realize that as a percentage of the WMF budget, > > $250k > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > relatively > > > > > > > > > > > small number. As others have said, this is not a reason > > for > > > > > > opacity > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > it, nor a reason for not having a conversation with the > > > > > community > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > something so strategically important as a decision to > > > explore > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > > of "Would users go to Wikipedia if it were an open > > channel > > > > > beyond > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > encyclopedia?" It's one thing to have a blue-sky > exercise > > > > > > thinking > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > possibilities, and another thing to take a $250k step > in > > > that > > > > > > > > > direction, > > > > > > > > > > > especially without consulting the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. I am getting tired about seeing bad news in general > > > about > > > > > WMF > > > > > > > > > > > governance, planning, and turnover. I am curious how > you > > > plan > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > address > > > > > > > > > > > those issues. Like you, I would rather that we be > talking > > > > about > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > movement plans for the next 10 years. However, it's > > > difficult > > > > > to > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > > conversations when WMF is making so many self-inflicted > > > > wounds. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > > > > round of resignations is of respectable people from the > > WMF > > > > > staff > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > making > > > > > > > > > > > the situation that much more concerning and that much > > more > > > > > > > difficult > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > recover from. It seems to me that WMF leadership has > lost > > > > > control > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > situation, and I'd like to hear what the recovery plan > > is. > > > > > > > > Personally, > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > feel that we need leadership that can build good > > > > relationships > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > staff and community, is transparent by default, and is > > > > capable > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > restoring > > > > > > > > > > > the credibility of the organization's planning, > > execution, > > > > and > > > > > > > > > goodwill. > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > think that we may need new leadership to make that > > happen. > > > I > > > > am > > > > > > > > > > interested > > > > > > > > > > > to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak < > > > > > > > > dar...@alk.edu.pl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11.02.2016 10:23 PM "SarahSV" < > sarahsv.w...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dariusz, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > he grant application doesn't restrict the search > > engine > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia > > > > > > > > > > > > projects. It says that the "Knowledge Engine by > > Wikipedia > > > > [is > > > > > > a] > > > > > > > > > system > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > discovering reliable and trustworthy public > information > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that the top range could > > potentially > > > be > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > open/public > > > > > > > > > > > > resources, but this is the far stretched total goal, > > and > > > > > still > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > general search engine of all content including > > commercial > > > > > one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And a rrasonable realistic outcome can be just > > improving > > > > our > > > > > > > > searches > > > > > > > > > > > > across projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't comment on the initial ideas or goals, as I > was > > > not > > > > > on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Board > > > > > > > > > > > > before August 2015, but this is what I understand we > > > build > > > > > now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The document says the "Search Engine by Wikipedia" > > > budget > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > 2015–2016 > > > > > > > > > > > > ($2.4 million) was approved by the board. Can you > > point > > > us > > > > > to > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > board > > > > > > > > > > > > meeting approved it and what was discussed there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont recall this specifically, and I'm going to > elude > > > > this > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > going to sleep (and hoping someone better informed > may > > > > pick). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good night! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dj > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > > > 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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > GN. > > > President Wikimedia Australia > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lila Tretikov > > Wikimedia Foundation > > > > *“Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.”* > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > 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