On Feb 28, 2016 12:29 PM, "Anthony Cole" <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Brion, are you aware of any WMF tech work aimed specifically at helping
> large for-profits engage with our projects? Andreas mentioned a
> side-project for Amazon.
As far as I know, Wikipedia lookups via Apple's Siri and Amazon Kindle's
lookup widget are handled 100% by Apple and Amazon respectively. They get
our data (presumably through our open data dumps), censor it, index it, and
write and maintain their own search and snippet display services.
And here's an example perhaps of why:
In 2008 or so WMF made an agreement with Apple to provide a search API for
the Mac OS X Dictionary app, which screen-scrapes Wikipedia articles as one
of the lookup options. They paid us a small sum and provided source for a
sample implementation, which I replaced with a one-file PHP script proxying
to our existing OpenSearch API. The entirety of effort on our end since has
been occasionally moving the PHP file to another server.
We found it was a bad deal -- in terms of it was moderately annoying
sometimes for ops and was pretty unclear in success terms, and they paid us
very little to begin with because we had no experienced business
development folks yet. We never made further such agreements that I'm aware
of.
I suppose Andreas might also be referring to work in mobile apps or mobile
web teams to improve compatibility with various systems, such as making
sure our Android app is installable on the Android-based Amazon Kindle Fire
devices. That's to benefit users by making sure they can use our free app
(open source and no-cost) on their devices regardless of which megacorp
made the device.
If that's "work for a company" then I have bad news -- our web site works
in browsers made by for-profit companies too! ;)
If there's anything else I'd really appreciate not having to guess at what
we're supposed to be defending or denying.
> Regardless of specific instances, in principle, would that be a reasonable
> place to invest general donation revenue, or should we get the for-profits
> to fund such work if it arises?
I don't even know what is being referred to so I'm not sure how to talk
about it. If talking about compatibility work that helps users, then I
think that's part of our job to do. If talking about making search engines,
they can and do just do it themselves without our involvement.
-- brion
>
> On Monday, 29 February 2016, Brion Vibber <bvib...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, February 28, 2016, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > Jimmy,
> > >
> > > I think the first step is for the Foundation to be more open and
> > > transparent about what work it is actually doing for commercial
re-users,
> > > and to announce such work proactively to both donors and the
community.
> > > There should be a dedicated space where such information is collected
and
> > > available to the public. Major developments should be announced on the
> > > Wikimedia blog.
> > >
> > > If some engineering team does work *specifically* for Amazon Kindle,
> > Amazon
> > > Echo, Google Play, Siri etc., then in my view the companies concerned
> > > should pay for that work, or the work should be left to a for-profit
> > > contractor. It should not be paid for by donors.
> >
> >
> > What non-hypothetical work are you referring to?
> >
> > {{cn}}
> >
> > -- brion
> >
> >
> > > Donors do not give money to the Foundation so it can flood the
knowledge
> > > market with a free product that a handful of companies then earn
billions
> > > from.
> > >
> > > As for API use, if there are *generic* APIs that multiple commercial
> > > re-users can benefit from, then they should be charged according to
their
> > > usage, with small users operating below a certain threshold being
exempt
> > > from payment.
> > >
> > > Lastly, we should not seek world domination. :) It's unhealthy,
> > especially
> > > in the world of information and knowledge. Prices should be high
enough
> > > that some competition is possible.
> > >
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Jimmy Wales <jimmywa...@ymail.com
> > <javascript:;>
> > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On the very specific topic of donor funding going to help commercial
> > > > re-users, we've had some interesting but inconclusive board
discussions
> > > > about this topic. Despite that he takes every opportunity to attack
> > me,
> > > > and surely it will disappoint him to know, but my general view is
100%
> > > > in agreement with him on the core issue - where commercial re-users
are
> > > > getting enormous value from our work, they should be paying for the
> > > > engineering resources required for their support.
> > > >
> > > > Here are two push-backs on the idea that I do think are deserving of
> > > > serious consideration:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Part of our core mission as a community is free access - will a
"pay
> > > > for service" model for APIs for commercial re-users alienate a
> > > > significant portion of the community? Does requiring some to pay
while
> > > > others get it free raise questions similar to those around "net
> > > > neutrality"?
> > > >
> > > > As a historical footnote, there was a deal many years ago with
> > > > Answers.com to give them access to an API which they used to present
> > our
> > > > content alongside many other resources. They paid for that - not a
> > huge
> > > > amount, but it was meaningful back in those days. I don't recall
this
> > > > being particularly controversial.
> > > >
> > > > 2. In many cases it may be too simplistic to simply say "a company
is
> > > > benefiting, so they should pay". The point is that *we* also
benefit,
> > > > from increased readership for example, from our work making it to
end
> > > > users as technology changes and as the way people get information
> > > > changes. There is certainly a situation where setting too high a
price
> > > > would simply push commercial re-users to not use our content at
all, so
> > > > sensible pricing would be key. And with real serious ongoing
analysis,
> > > > the right price could still be "free" even if we in principle
charge.
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > > > For me, despite those being real concerns, I come down firmly on the
> > > > side of being careful about falling into a trap of doing lots of
> > > > expensive work for commercial re-users without having them pay. I
> > don't
> > > > actually think we do a lot of that right now. What I'd like to see
is
> > > > more of it, and I'm pretty agnostic about whether that's in the
form of
> > > > "self-financing cottage industries" or a "separate for-profit arm"
or
> > > > within the current engineering organization. I can see arguments
for
> > > > any of those.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2/28/16 8:02 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak <
> > dar...@alk.edu.pl <javascript:;>
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > We COULD outsource most of our tech (I'm not supporting this, I'm
> > just
> > > > >> giving perspective).
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing I've been wondering about of late is how much
donor-funded
> > > the
> > > > > work the WMF is doing that is primarily designed to support
> > commercial
> > > > > re-users.
> > > > >
> > > > > The other day, I read an Engineering report on the Wikimedia blog
> > that
> > > > > spoke of the Wikipedia Zero team doing "side project" work for
Amazon
> > > > > Kindle and Google Play.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was thinking, Why are donors paying for that? – especially at a
> > time
> > > > when
> > > > > the Foundation worries about being able to sustain fundraising
> > growth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wikimedia content is worth billions. Wikidata in particular has
huge
> > > > > potential value for commercial re-users.[1] So have the link-ups
> > > between
> > > > > Wikipedia and Amazon, Google, Bing etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's clear that even in 2008, the Foundation was inundated with
> > > "multiple
> > > > > product-specific pitches" from Google.[2] I imagine the breadth
and
> > > > number
> > > > > of these pitches from Silicon Valley companies can only have
> > increased
> > > > > since then.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure, Wikimedia is committed to using its donated funds to make
> > content
> > > > > freely available under an open licence, but does that mean donors
> > > should
> > > > > also be paying for programming work that is primarily designed to
> > > support
> > > > > commercial re-users?
> > > > >
> > > > > That work could be done by self-financing cottage industries
built up
> > > by
> > > > > Wikimedians, working for profit, or even a for-profit arm of the
> > > > > Foundation. All the Foundation would have to do would be to
provide
> > > basic
> > > > > documentation; the rest could be left to the open market.
> > > > >
> > > > > The astonishing thing to me is that there seems to be very little
or
> > no
> > > > > publicity and transparency from the WMF about developments in this
> > > area.
> > > > > For instance, I was unable to find any WMF communication about
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > Smart Lookup being integrated in the Amazon Kindle (something
Amazon
> > > > > announced in 2014),[3] even though WMF teams clearly have done
> > > > programming
> > > > > work on this. You'd have thought having Wikipedia search embedded
in
> > a
> > > > > major product like the Kindle is a big thing, worthy of a
> > > > community-facing
> > > > > announcement?
> > > > >
> > > > > In short, I think the WMF should collate and publicise more
> > information
> > > > > about commercial re-use applications, and be transparent about the
> > work
> > > > > it's doing to support such re-use. Maybe there is another
> > "transparency
> > > > > gap" here.[4]
> > > > >
> > > > > And if there is any work that the Foundation is currently doing
that
> > > > > primarily benefits commercial re-users, then I think it should
stop
> > > doing
> > > > > that for free (= at donors' expense), and allow for-profit
> > contractors
> > > to
> > > > > spring up and pitch for that work. That would allow the non-profit
> > > > > foundation to focus on user-facing improvements.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andreas
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/25/wikidata_turns_the_world_into_a_database/
> > > > > [2] See Sue Gardner's email quoted on the last two pages of
> > > > > http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/sandberg.pdf
> > > > > [3]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=cs_hc_k_m_oldest?ie=UTF8&forumID=Fx1FI6JDSFEQQ7V&cdThread=Tx27IU7Z5IQJV2J&cdSort=oldest
> > > > > [4]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_transparency_gap#Transparency_about_donor-funded_work_supporting_commercial_re-users
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>
> --
> Anthony Cole
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