Hi Mitar,

I haven't been on Wiki-l that long so not sure how (or if) people respond
to this issue, which is somewhat common. I will take a stab at responding
and will try to keep it short and sweet as you said you don't want a lot of
Wiki:Rulz....

First off:
Please include your user name and the name of the article you were working
on. Without any context it's impossible to help you. Thankfully I was able
to dig and find the page, etc. But include identifying info if you want
help / resolution.

User name: Mitar

Name of page: Poligon

Deletion log:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Poligon

Discussion (with reason):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG#Please_remove_the_tag_from_Poligon_page

Second off:

This happens a lot. Here at Wikimedia NYC, where support a lot of
editathons with new users, who tend to want to create new pages, speedy
deletion of articles as well as edits is unfortunately common.

I don't have rights to view the deleted article, but if someone who does
moves it to your sandbox or a draft space you could work on it there, and I
would be happy to take a quick look at it / try to help.

Third off:

The structures you propose exist, but if you don't educate yourself on
procedures and policies and are a casual editor, you might not be aware of
them. Not trying to be mean or harsh here but I appreciate your passion and
thoughts and want you to know there are solutions in place....

Potential solutions:

The best solution I've found if as a newish user you are wanting to create
new articles (as a short stub) is to do it in your Sandbox and make sure
you have at least 5 (or even 10) very solid citations. Have a friendly
editor take a look at the article before attempting to move it to the main
space.

It is critical you use the citations to establish notability. Not
everything is notable, and especially if the Wiki-en audience isn't
knowledgeable of the subject matter, it's even more important.

I know (and vouch for) DGG and he's queued a few articles I've worked on
for deletion. :-) He and many folks doing Articles for Deletion / Speedy
Deletion are well-intentioned, but sometimes it is a bit of an active
discussion. I suspect that folks who are evaluating deletions are doing it
quickly sometimes, and don't always have the context, but their goal is to
"protect" Wiki content, so....

The IRC help channel (
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=wikipedia-en-help) is also a great
resource -- especially if it's a time zone issue.

Glad you are enjoying the Visual Editor.

Best,

Erika

*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>*
Secretary, Wikimedia NYC

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Mitar <mmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I am an occasional editor of Wikipedia, I read it a lot, I edit
> sometimes, and I am at all not familiar with bureaucracies and rules
> Wikipedia community has developed through years (call me lazy, but
> they simply always look too scary and too many for me to even start
> reading them, walls and walls of text). When I interact with Wikipedia
> I thus try to assume what reasonable rules for creating a
> collaborative source of all human knowledge would be.
>
> As such I would like to share one positive feedback and one negative
> feedback (frustration). The latter comes from my surprise between what
> I would assume rules would be and what I have experienced. I am
> sharing this to help prevent similar frustrations to other editors who
> maybe be less persistent than me and just give up.
>
> I am also guessing this has come up again and again in the past.
>
> Anyway. First the positive feedback. I love the visual editor! I
> finally switched to it and I am not going back! This is a life saver
> for somebody who just occasionally edits Wikipedia. No need to anymore
> guess if I should use single [ ] or double [[ ]]. No need to try to
> remember the syntax for references every time when I am editing
> Wikipedia after few months pause. Great job!
>
> But the negative feedback comes from me getting too enthusiastic about
> my new visual editor experience and I decided to create some my own
> new articles instead of just editing existing ones. The result was
> that one of such articles was speedily deleted without any due
> process, because it was deemed insignificant, no discussion, in a day.
>
> The whole notion of insignificant and not notable articles comes to me
> as a surprise. It seems to me as a legacy of printed encyclopedias
> which were limited in number of pages printed. But an online
> encyclopedia? How is this possible?
>
> Why I have problems with this:
>
> I created an English article which is significant at least for people
> in Slovenia, with references to local news articles. How can other
> editors who might not know the subject, and are not from Slovenia,
> decide that this is not significant and just delete a page, without
> even starting a discussion? I commented on the talk page citing
> reasons and it was simply ignored, and everything deleted? Why is not
> enough to put a notice there to improve the article? Allow others to
> add content, explain more, give their input?
>
> So, a general question is: how can we build a global encyclopedia with
> editors who does not understand significance of a particular article
> in a local environment?
>
> Why are articles simply deleted instead of guiding users on how to improve
> them?
>
> Why there is no process involved where interested people could discuss
> why is something significant? A voting process where people could say
> "oh, I care about this"?
>
> Furthermore, everything happened in a day. There are timezones
> involved, some of us have to do other things in our lives. Are you
> sure that such short deadlines really foster global community? If this
> is something which is regularly done at Wikipedia, I think that this
> is coming from a big position of privilege. Of editors who can be in
> front of their computers the whole day and engage in editing the
> Wikipedia all the time. Not everyone can afford that. Especially
> looking at this globally. One day notice? This is crazy.
>
> But my main issue is conceptual. Why is there such a rule in the first
> place? Why are we deleting anything except for things which are not
> true? Is Internet too small to have all human knowledge in one place?
> Why it is a problem if some Wikipedia article is cared by "only" 100
> people? 1000 people? Will it run out of disk space?
>
> I think this comes from the reason that we are trying to copy what is
> encyclopedia too much without adapting the idea to the 21st century.
> It is like academic papers which had selection because it was costly
> to print it, but in 21st century we can have then academic journals
> which simply accept all submissions, only that they are technically
> sound (in case of Wikipedia, that they have structure of an
> encyclopedia article, with all other rules about the content of the
> article, and references). See Plos One:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLOS_ONE This revolutionized academia.
> And I think Wikipedia should do a similar thing.
>
> One reason I found is that the issue why deleting articles is that
> there is a limited attention of editors. If there are too many
> articles editors would not be able to maintain good quality for all of
> them.
>
> I cannot agree with this argument. This is the most short-sighted
> argument ever. First, all articles start by being low quality and then
> they improve. Second, by allowing new articles to exist, you are also
> getting new editors who care about those new articles. The article I
> created? Guess what, you would have at least one editor (me) who would
> care about it. Now you have 0.5 editor less (me) who cares about
> anything else less now.
>
> This is a feedback loop. More content you allow, more editors you will
> have. Invite people to write about fiction they love, local spaces,
> local events, everything. If it is true, if it has a form of an
> encyclopedia article, why it could not exist?
>
> We could create special tags instead deletion or a warning at the top
> of the article:
>
> "Warning: article has a small readerbase and might lack in quality. Be
> extra wary of potential untruths and errors in the article."
>
> Done. Wikipedia grows, Wikipedia is happy, and new editors do not get
> frustrated. So simple.
>
> Yes, people will say. But we are building encyclopedia. Encyclopedia
> has to have only notable entries. Yes. In 20st century and before.
> Maybe it is time we reinvent encyclopedia? And maybe we are doing more
> than just encyclopedia, but "a collaborative source of all human
> knowledge", in a form of encyclopedia.
>
> I just hope this rule does not exist only so that Wikia has a business
> model. You remove pages from Wikipedia so that people have to go to
> Wikia. Why?
>
> Why introducing artificial scarcity?
>
> Without such rules to back them up, trigger happy editors would not be
> deleting articles. Instead, editors like me would have time and
> opportunity to improve them, and articles might through time be proven
> significant because people would stumble upon them and you would see
> stats of readerbase. Now, nobody can know how many readers are in fact
> searching for that article on Google but cannot find it.
>
> I know it is impossible to change anything in how Wikipedia operates.
> It is just too big and has too big momentum in a way it is already
> doing things. But please please consider changing this rules. No need
> for deletion. Just mark them. Grey them out. Let's have another state
> between "existing" and "non-existing". Like "articles in limbo". They
> are not part of encyclopedia, but they are part of human knowledge. We
> are unsure about them.
>
> Thanks for your attention, to those who managed to read through my
> long rant. Sorry.
>
>
> Mitar
>
> --
> http://mitar.tnode.com/
> https://twitter.com/mitar_m
>
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