I should add: I spent a few months following the various AFD queues on
WP lately, and MY GOODNESS THERE ARE SO MANY BLATANT SPAMMERS. What
Jytdog raises is an actual problem. The short reason for a lot of the
Problems with Wikipedia is actually "spammers mean we can't have nice
things".


- d.


On 2 January 2017 at 22:08, Jytdog <jytdogte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christophe
>
> Thanks for replying!
>
> This is something the board should be paying  attention to, as undisclosed
> paid editing that causes scandal that reaches mainstream media on a regular
> basis, damages the reputation of Wikipedia, and is something that both Jimmy
> Wales and Sue Gardner (when she was ED) made strong public statements about.
>
> See:
> * https://www.ft.com/content/3f726eba-bb6f-11e4-b95c-00144feab7de
> *
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/01/wikimedia-foundation-employee-ousted-over-paid-editing/
> *
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-10-01/Paid_editing
> *
> http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/19/new-wikipedia-scandal-uk-head-was-paid-to-promote-topics.html
>
> And there are many more references to this issue in mainstream media.
>
> Doing nothing, especially when WMF representatives make strong statements
> and there are legal remedies available (WMF legal sent a cease-and-desist
> order to Wiki-PR with regard to use of the Wikipedia name even before the
> ToU were strengthened) opens the WMF to criticism and makes those strong
> statements appear to be just empty rhetoric.  Action is possible.  Where is
> it?
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Christophe Henner" <chen...@wikimedia.org>
> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: 1/2/2017 3:51:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies that offer
> paid editing services
>
>> Heu
>>
>> To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate.
>>
>> So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an answer
>> right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't
>> foresee.
>>
>> I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as the
>> current focus is on the strategy process.
>>
>> Have a very good day,
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are
>> currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not
>> officially from them until after the 9th January.
>>
>> On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  This is something that people can natter over endlessly.
>>>
>>>  The question is to the WMF board and management.  These are the people
>>> who
>>>  can authorize action or not.  Anything else is just talk.
>>>
>>>  Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate
>>> decision-making
>>>  level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise WP
>>>  editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as required
>>> under
>>>  the ToU?
>>>
>>>  Thanks.
>>>
>>>  On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  > Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before
>>> realizing
>>>  > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait here
>>> for
>>>  > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation
>>> behind
>>>  > closed doors.
>>>  >
>>>  > Pine
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  >
>>>  > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF over
>>>  those
>>>  > > not following the Terms of use.
>>>  > >
>>>  > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that charge
>>>  for
>>>  > > content;
>>>  > >
>>>  > >    - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position
>>>  > >    - would it drive them to further hide their activities
>>>  > >    - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok for a
>>>  > >    company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia. we
>>>  already
>>>  > > deal
>>>  > >    with the EUs right to vanish
>>>  > >
>>>  > > sometimes its better to not open the can.  I think a lot more
>>>  discussion
>>>  > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some of
>>> that
>>>  can
>>>  > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community
>>> trust(something
>>>  I
>>>  > > think isnt all there at the moment),  before asking the WMF legal to
>>>  > pick a
>>>  > > fight with anyone.
>>>  > >
>>>  > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  > >
>>>  > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general terms
>>> what
>>>  > they
>>>  > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future.
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much and we
>>>  > aren't
>>>  > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do
>>
>> something
>>>
>>>  > > about
>>>  > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing for
>>
>> this
>>>
>>>  > > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early stages of
>>>  > > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan.
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > > Happy new year!
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > > Pine
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia <
>>>  > > jytdogte...@gmail.com
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > wrote:
>>>  > > >
>>>  > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do anything like
>>>  this
>>>  > > > > unless they are instructed by management.  That is why I
>>> directed
>>>  my
>>>  > > > > question to the board and management.
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over the
>>>  > > holidays,
>>>  > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page.
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF management
>>> on
>>>  > > this.
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > > Jytdog
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800
>>>  > > > > > From: Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>
>>>  > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
>>>  > > > > >         Wikimedia Legal <le...@wikimedia.org>
>>>  > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing
>>> companies
>>>  > that
>>>  > > > > >         offer paid editing services
>>>  > > > > > Message-ID:
>>>  > > > > >         <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_
>>>  > > > +M=m9E5Bo3aysPAOw@mail.gmail.
>>>  > > > > > com>
>>>  > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of
>>>  > undisclosed
>>>  > > > COI
>>>  > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement of
>>
>> this,
>>>
>>>  > > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's NPOV and
>>> RS
>>>  > > > policies
>>>  > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might be able
>>
>> to
>>>
>>>  > > > recover
>>>  > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by
>>> including
>>
>> a
>>>
>>>  > > > > statement
>>>  > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who
>>> engage
>>>  in
>>>  > > > > certain
>>>  > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF for
>>>  > attorney
>>>  > > > > fees,
>>>  > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations and
>>>  > > enforcement,
>>>  > > > > and
>>>  > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to WMF.
>>> My
>>>  > > guess
>>>  > > > is
>>>  > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger
>>> deterrent
>>>  > than
>>>  > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters.
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Pine
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  > > ----------
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500
>>>  > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com>
>>>  > > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>  > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies
>>> that
>>>  > > offer
>>>  > > > > >         paid    editing services
>>>  > > > > > Message-ID:
>>>  > > > > >         <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+
>>>  9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail.
>>>  > > > > > gmail.com>
>>>  > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board has
>>>  > discussed
>>>  > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer services to
>>
>> edit
>>>
>>>  > > > > Wikipedia
>>>  > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits (in
>>>  en-WP
>>>  > at
>>>  > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use.  We all know the companies and
>>
>> their
>>>
>>>  > > > > websites,
>>>  > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc.  I have looked and
>>> never
>>>  > > found
>>>  > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP.  I have looked
>>
>> and
>>>
>>>  > > found
>>>  > > > > no
>>>  > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these companies,
>>
>> other
>>>
>>>  > > than
>>>  > > > > > Wiki-PR.
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term paid
>>> editor
>>>  > and
>>>  > > > > > brought the matter to ANI:  thread is here
>>>  > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:
>>>  > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=757170150#
>>>  > > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_
>>>  > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>.
>>>  > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something I have
>>>  been
>>>  > > > > wanting
>>>  > > > > > to ask about.
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Three questions:
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the outcomes
>>>  > been?
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action against
>>> such
>>>  > > > > companies?
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that?
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > > Thanks.
>>>  > > > > >
>>>  > > > > _______________________________________________
>>>  > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>  https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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>>>  > >
>>>  > >
>>>  > >
>>>  > > --
>>>  > > GN.
>>>  > > President Wikimedia Australia
>>>  > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>>  > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>>  > > _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> President Wikimedia Australia
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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