I should add: I spent a few months following the various AFD queues on WP lately, and MY GOODNESS THERE ARE SO MANY BLATANT SPAMMERS. What Jytdog raises is an actual problem. The short reason for a lot of the Problems with Wikipedia is actually "spammers mean we can't have nice things".
- d. On 2 January 2017 at 22:08, Jytdog <[email protected]> wrote: > Christophe > > Thanks for replying! > > This is something the board should be paying attention to, as undisclosed > paid editing that causes scandal that reaches mainstream media on a regular > basis, damages the reputation of Wikipedia, and is something that both Jimmy > Wales and Sue Gardner (when she was ED) made strong public statements about. > > See: > * https://www.ft.com/content/3f726eba-bb6f-11e4-b95c-00144feab7de > * > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/01/wikimedia-foundation-employee-ousted-over-paid-editing/ > * > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-10-01/Paid_editing > * > http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/19/new-wikipedia-scandal-uk-head-was-paid-to-promote-topics.html > > And there are many more references to this issue in mainstream media. > > Doing nothing, especially when WMF representatives make strong statements > and there are legal remedies available (WMF legal sent a cease-and-desist > order to Wiki-PR with regard to use of the Wikipedia name even before the > ToU were strengthened) opens the WMF to criticism and makes those strong > statements appear to be just empty rhetoric. Action is possible. Where is > it? > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Christophe Henner" <[email protected]> > To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <[email protected]> > Sent: 1/2/2017 3:51:49 AM > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies that offer > paid editing services > >> Heu >> >> To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate. >> >> So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an answer >> right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't >> foresee. >> >> I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as the >> current focus is on the strategy process. >> >> Have a very good day, >> >> >> >> Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" <[email protected]> a écrit : >> >> Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are >> currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not >> officially from them until after the 9th January. >> >> On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> This is something that people can natter over endlessly. >>> >>> The question is to the WMF board and management. These are the people >>> who >>> can authorize action or not. Anything else is just talk. >>> >>> Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate >>> decision-making >>> level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise WP >>> editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as required >>> under >>> the ToU? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before >>> realizing >>> > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait here >>> for >>> > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation >>> behind >>> > closed doors. >>> > >>> > Pine >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF over >>> those >>> > > not following the Terms of use. >>> > > >>> > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that charge >>> for >>> > > content; >>> > > >>> > > - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position >>> > > - would it drive them to further hide their activities >>> > > - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok for a >>> > > company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia. we >>> already >>> > > deal >>> > > with the EUs right to vanish >>> > > >>> > > sometimes its better to not open the can. I think a lot more >>> discussion >>> > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some of >>> that >>> can >>> > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community >>> trust(something >>> I >>> > > think isnt all there at the moment), before asking the WMF legal to >>> > pick a >>> > > fight with anyone. >>> > > >>> > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general terms >>> what >>> > they >>> > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future. >>> > > > >>> > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much and we >>> > aren't >>> > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do >> >> something >>> >>> > > about >>> > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing for >> >> this >>> >>> > > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early stages of >>> > > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan. >>> > > > >>> > > > Happy new year! >>> > > > >>> > > > Pine >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia < >>> > > [email protected] >>> > > > > >>> > > > wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do anything like >>> this >>> > > > > unless they are instructed by management. That is why I >>> directed >>> my >>> > > > > question to the board and management. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over the >>> > > holidays, >>> > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF management >>> on >>> > > this. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Jytdog >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800 >>> > > > > > From: Pine W <[email protected]> >>> > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]>, >>> > > > > > Wikimedia Legal <[email protected]> >>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing >>> companies >>> > that >>> > > > > > offer paid editing services >>> > > > > > Message-ID: >>> > > > > > <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_ >>> > > > [email protected]. >>> > > > > > com> >>> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of >>> > undisclosed >>> > > > COI >>> > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement of >> >> this, >>> >>> > > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's NPOV and >>> RS >>> > > > policies >>> > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might be able >> >> to >>> >>> > > > recover >>> > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by >>> including >> >> a >>> >>> > > > > statement >>> > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who >>> engage >>> in >>> > > > > certain >>> > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF for >>> > attorney >>> > > > > fees, >>> > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations and >>> > > enforcement, >>> > > > > and >>> > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to WMF. >>> My >>> > > guess >>> > > > is >>> > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger >>> deterrent >>> > than >>> > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Pine >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > > ---------- >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500 >>> > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia <[email protected]> >>> > > > > > To: [email protected] >>> > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies >>> that >>> > > offer >>> > > > > > paid editing services >>> > > > > > Message-ID: >>> > > > > > <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+ >>> 9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail. >>> > > > > > gmail.com> >>> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board has >>> > discussed >>> > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer services to >> >> edit >>> >>> > > > > Wikipedia >>> > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits (in >>> en-WP >>> > at >>> > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use. We all know the companies and >> >> their >>> >>> > > > > websites, >>> > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc. I have looked and >>> never >>> > > found >>> > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP. I have looked >> >> and >>> >>> > > found >>> > > > > no >>> > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these companies, >> >> other >>> >>> > > than >>> > > > > > Wiki-PR. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term paid >>> editor >>> > and >>> > > > > > brought the matter to ANI: thread is here >>> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia: >>> > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=757170150# >>> > > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_ >>> > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>. >>> > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something I have >>> been >>> > > > > wanting >>> > > > > > to ask about. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Three questions: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the outcomes >>> > been? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action against >>> such >>> > > > > companies? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Thanks. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> > > > > New messages to: [email protected] >>> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ >>> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= >>> unsubscribe> >>> > > > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> > > > New messages to: [email protected] >>> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ >>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> > > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > GN. >>> > > President Wikimedia Australia >>> > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra >>> > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> > > New messages to: [email protected] >>> > > Unsubscribe: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> > New messages to: [email protected] >>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> New messages to: [email protected] >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> GN. >> President Wikimedia Australia >> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra >> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> New messages to: [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> New messages to: [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
