I've just crossed https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Paulinapaulina3030 but I must confess I won't do anything out of the wiki (it.wiki) where I am a local sysop. Catching crosswiki paid editing is the most frustrating activity ever, a couple of years ago I wasted two months in defending myself against the trolling I drew for deleting userpages of someone massively creating them to promote a "customer".
Vito 2017-01-06 6:17 GMT+01:00 Jytdog at Wikipedia <[email protected]>: > Sending a cease and desist letter costs little. WMF will find many > volunteers happy to provide what evidence they possess linking various > companies to various articles. > > Yes, attempting to enforce a cease and desist letter would entail court > costs, and that should be considered. One thing that drives court costs is > the resources of the other side in litigation and my sense is many of these > individuals and their companies do not have deep pockets; I am not sure > how the real is the risk of litigation draining the WMF budget. > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Risker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > It's a difficult challenge. I agree with David; on English Wikipedia, we > > have masses and masses of articles of borderline notability that are so > > obviously blatant spam....and they have a terrible tendency to be kept at > > Articles for Deletion. It's a reflection of our still-optimistic outlook > > that there are still people who believe that someone will come along and > > magically turn the spam into something encyclopedic; the reality is that > > those articles tend to stay pretty much as they are unless someone who > has > > dug up the sources that supposedly make a subject notable actually edit > the > > article to transform it from advertorial to encyclopedic. > > > > I do not know enough about how other Wikipedias handle such spam, > although > > I have heard from some people editing on some projects that similar > > articles there would be speedy-deleted without a second thought. I do not > > think that it is likely that English Wikipedia will get to that point > > unless more people who feel strongly about spam actively participate at > > AfD. > > > > As to the WMF investing in trying to track down and take down "paid > editing > > companies", there are a few things to keep in mind. First, it's very > > expensive to develop the evidence that makes the direct link from the > spam > > article to the real identity of the writer of the article. Many of those > > "companies" are individual people, and there are also plenty of people > who > > call themselves "advisors" who may not edit directly but facilitate > > companies getting their spam on Wikipedia. And just finding those > > people/organizations isn't enough - then the course of action usually > > involves the courts (of varying jurisdictions) which means more lawyers > and > > more external legal fees. We're talking a lot of money here, and that's > the > > area where I have significant concern - a concerted effort covering the > 10 > > largest projects could easily cost as much as the WMF's annual budget. > One > > more thing to keep in mind: many courts would expect some evidence that > > the problematic organization is causing harm to the brand and financial > > position of Wikipedia. That part is tough - it's almost impossible to > > demonstrate a financial cost to Wikipedia for having a spammy article, > > especially as such a large percentage of the articles on many projectst > are > > barely of "start" quality. The fact that there is a conscious decision > not > > to take advantage of mitigating remedies that are already available to us > > (such as confirmed identity or not permitting article creation until > after > > a certain number of edits) would also be a potential barrier to legal > > remedies against paid editing. (I'm not advocating those changes at all, > > just looking at it from an external perspective.) > > > > Is undisclosed paid editing a violation of the terms of use? Of course > it > > is. But outside of security and safety issues, the WMF has historically > > left it to the volunteers to interpret the TOU and apply it on individual > > projects. Frankly, it's how the WMF manages with only a $75 million > > budget, which is less than many similarly large and popular sites spend > on > > client services, let alone legal fees. Given the longterm frustration of > > many community members about fundraising, it may be a very tough sell > > within our own broad community to have to raise more money for the > purpose > > of hiring the staff and paying the bills to address undisclosed paid > > editing to the point that there is a genuine effect. > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > On 5 January 2017 at 13:53, David Gerard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I should add: I spent a few months following the various AFD queues on > > > WP lately, and MY GOODNESS THERE ARE SO MANY BLATANT SPAMMERS. What > > > Jytdog raises is an actual problem. The short reason for a lot of the > > > Problems with Wikipedia is actually "spammers mean we can't have nice > > > things". > > > > > > > > > - d. > > > > > > > > > On 2 January 2017 at 22:08, Jytdog <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Christophe > > > > > > > > Thanks for replying! > > > > > > > > This is something the board should be paying attention to, as > > > undisclosed > > > > paid editing that causes scandal that reaches mainstream media on a > > > regular > > > > basis, damages the reputation of Wikipedia, and is something that > both > > > Jimmy > > > > Wales and Sue Gardner (when she was ED) made strong public statements > > > about. > > > > > > > > See: > > > > * https://www.ft.com/content/3f726eba-bb6f-11e4-b95c-00144feab7de > > > > * > > > > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/01/wikimedia- > > > foundation-employee-ousted-over-paid-editing/ > > > > * > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/ > > > 2012-10-01/Paid_editing > > > > * > > > > http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/19/new-wikipedia- > > > scandal-uk-head-was-paid-to-promote-topics.html > > > > > > > > And there are many more references to this issue in mainstream media. > > > > > > > > Doing nothing, especially when WMF representatives make strong > > statements > > > > and there are legal remedies available (WMF legal sent a > > cease-and-desist > > > > order to Wiki-PR with regard to use of the Wikipedia name even before > > the > > > > ToU were strengthened) opens the WMF to criticism and makes those > > strong > > > > statements appear to be just empty rhetoric. Action is possible. > > Where > > > is > > > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > > > > From: "Christophe Henner" <[email protected]> > > > > To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: 1/2/2017 3:51:49 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies that > > > offer > > > > paid editing services > > > > > > > >> Heu > > > >> > > > >> To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate. > > > >> > > > >> So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an > answer > > > >> right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't > > > >> foresee. > > > >> > > > >> I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as > the > > > >> current focus is on the strategy process. > > > >> > > > >> Have a very good day, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" <[email protected]> a écrit > : > > > >> > > > >> Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are > > > >> currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not > > > >> officially from them until after the 9th January. > > > >> > > > >> On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia < > > [email protected]> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> This is something that people can natter over endlessly. > > > >>> > > > >>> The question is to the WMF board and management. These are the > > people > > > >>> who > > > >>> can authorize action or not. Anything else is just talk. > > > >>> > > > >>> Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate > > > >>> decision-making > > > >>> level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise > WP > > > >>> editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as > required > > > >>> under > > > >>> the ToU? > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before > > > >>> realizing > > > >>> > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait > > here > > > >>> for > > > >>> > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation > > > >>> behind > > > >>> > closed doors. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Pine > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF > > over > > > >>> those > > > >>> > > not following the Terms of use. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that > > > charge > > > >>> for > > > >>> > > content; > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position > > > >>> > > - would it drive them to further hide their activities > > > >>> > > - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok > for > > a > > > >>> > > company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia. > we > > > >>> already > > > >>> > > deal > > > >>> > > with the EUs right to vanish > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > sometimes its better to not open the can. I think a lot more > > > >>> discussion > > > >>> > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some > of > > > >>> that > > > >>> can > > > >>> > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community > > > >>> trust(something > > > >>> I > > > >>> > > think isnt all there at the moment), before asking the WMF > > legal > > > to > > > >>> > pick a > > > >>> > > fight with anyone. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general > terms > > > >>> what > > > >>> > they > > > >>> > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much > and > > > we > > > >>> > aren't > > > >>> > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do > > > >> > > > >> something > > > >>> > > > >>> > > about > > > >>> > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing > > for > > > >> > > > >> this > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early > stages > > of > > > >>> > > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Happy new year! > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Pine > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia < > > > >>> > > [email protected] > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do > anything > > > like > > > >>> this > > > >>> > > > > unless they are instructed by management. That is why I > > > >>> directed > > > >>> my > > > >>> > > > > question to the board and management. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over > > the > > > >>> > > holidays, > > > >>> > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF > > > management > > > >>> on > > > >>> > > this. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Jytdog > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800 > > > >>> > > > > > From: Pine W <[email protected]> > > > >>> > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]. > > org > > > >, > > > >>> > > > > > Wikimedia Legal <[email protected]> > > > >>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing > > > >>> companies > > > >>> > that > > > >>> > > > > > offer paid editing services > > > >>> > > > > > Message-ID: > > > >>> > > > > > <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_ > > > >>> > > > [email protected]. > > > >>> > > > > > com> > > > >>> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of > > > >>> > undisclosed > > > >>> > > > COI > > > >>> > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement > > of > > > >> > > > >> this, > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's > NPOV > > > and > > > >>> RS > > > >>> > > > policies > > > >>> > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might > be > > > able > > > >> > > > >> to > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > recover > > > >>> > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by > > > >>> including > > > >> > > > >> a > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > statement > > > >>> > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who > > > >>> engage > > > >>> in > > > >>> > > > > certain > > > >>> > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF > > for > > > >>> > attorney > > > >>> > > > > fees, > > > >>> > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations > and > > > >>> > > enforcement, > > > >>> > > > > and > > > >>> > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to > > > WMF. > > > >>> My > > > >>> > > guess > > > >>> > > > is > > > >>> > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger > > > >>> deterrent > > > >>> > than > > > >>> > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters. > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Pine > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > >>> > > ---------- > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500 > > > >>> > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia <[email protected]> > > > >>> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > >>> > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing > > companies > > > >>> that > > > >>> > > offer > > > >>> > > > > > paid editing services > > > >>> > > > > > Message-ID: > > > >>> > > > > > <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+ > > > >>> 9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail. > > > >>> > > > > > gmail.com> > > > >>> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board > > has > > > >>> > discussed > > > >>> > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer > services > > to > > > >> > > > >> edit > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > Wikipedia > > > >>> > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits > > (in > > > >>> en-WP > > > >>> > at > > > >>> > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use. We all know the companies > > and > > > >> > > > >> their > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > websites, > > > >>> > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc. I have looked > and > > > >>> never > > > >>> > > found > > > >>> > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP. I have > > > looked > > > >> > > > >> and > > > >>> > > > >>> > > found > > > >>> > > > > no > > > >>> > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these > > companies, > > > >> > > > >> other > > > >>> > > > >>> > > than > > > >>> > > > > > Wiki-PR. > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term > paid > > > >>> editor > > > >>> > and > > > >>> > > > > > brought the matter to ANI: thread is here > > > >>> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia: > > > >>> > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/ > Incidents&oldid=757170150# > > > >>> > > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_ > > > >>> > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>. > > > >>> > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something > I > > > have > > > >>> been > > > >>> > > > > wanting > > > >>> > > > > > to ask about. > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Three questions: > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the > > > outcomes > > > >>> > been? > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action > against > > > >>> such > > > >>> > > > > companies? > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that? > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Thanks. > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >>> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >>> > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > >>> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > >>> unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >>> > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > >>> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > -- > > > >>> > > GN. > > > >>> > > President Wikimedia Australia > > > >>> > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > >>> > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > > >>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >>> > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > >>> > > Unsubscribe: > > > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > > >>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >>> > New messages to: [email protected] > > > >>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > unsubscribe> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >>> New messages to: [email protected] > > > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> GN. > > > >> President Wikimedia Australia > > > >> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > >> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >> New messages to: [email protected] > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > > >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > >> New messages to: [email protected] > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > > >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: 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