I've just crossed
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Paulinapaulina3030 but
I must confess I won't do anything out of the wiki (it.wiki) where I am a
local sysop.
Catching crosswiki paid editing is the most frustrating activity ever, a
couple of years ago I wasted two months in defending myself against the
trolling I drew for deleting userpages of someone massively creating them
to promote a "customer".

Vito

2017-01-06 6:17 GMT+01:00 Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com>:

> Sending a cease and desist letter costs little.    WMF will find many
> volunteers happy to provide what evidence they possess linking various
> companies to various articles.
>
> Yes, attempting to enforce a cease and desist letter would entail court
> costs, and that should be considered.  One thing that drives court costs is
> the resources of the other side in litigation and my sense is many of these
> individuals and their companies do not have deep pockets;  I am not sure
> how the real is the risk of litigation draining the WMF budget.
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It's a difficult challenge.  I agree with David; on English Wikipedia, we
> > have masses and masses of articles of borderline notability that are so
> > obviously blatant spam....and they have a terrible tendency to be kept at
> > Articles for Deletion.  It's a reflection of our still-optimistic outlook
> > that there are still people who believe that someone will come along and
> > magically turn the spam into something encyclopedic; the reality is that
> > those articles tend to stay pretty much as they are unless someone who
> has
> > dug up the sources that supposedly make a subject notable actually edit
> the
> > article to transform it from advertorial to encyclopedic.
> >
> > I do not know enough about how other Wikipedias handle such spam,
> although
> > I have heard from some people editing on some projects that similar
> > articles there would be speedy-deleted without a second thought. I do not
> > think that it is likely that English Wikipedia will get to that point
> > unless more people who feel strongly about spam actively participate at
> > AfD.
> >
> > As to the WMF investing in trying to track down and take down "paid
> editing
> > companies", there are a few things to keep in mind.  First, it's very
> > expensive to develop the evidence that makes the direct link from the
> spam
> > article to the real identity of the writer of the article.  Many of those
> > "companies" are individual people, and there are also plenty of people
> who
> > call themselves "advisors" who may not edit directly but facilitate
> > companies getting their spam on Wikipedia. And just finding those
> > people/organizations isn't enough - then the course of action usually
> > involves the courts (of varying jurisdictions) which means more lawyers
> and
> > more external legal fees. We're talking a lot of money here, and that's
> the
> > area where I have significant concern - a concerted effort covering the
> 10
> > largest projects could easily cost as much as the WMF's annual budget.
> One
> > more thing to keep in mind:  many courts would expect some evidence that
> > the problematic organization is causing harm to the brand and financial
> > position of Wikipedia.  That part is tough - it's almost impossible to
> > demonstrate a financial cost to Wikipedia for having a spammy article,
> > especially as such a large percentage of the articles on many projectst
> are
> > barely of "start" quality.  The fact that there is a conscious decision
> not
> > to take advantage of mitigating remedies that are already available to us
> > (such as confirmed identity or not permitting article creation until
> after
> > a certain number of edits) would also be a potential barrier to legal
> > remedies against paid editing. (I'm not advocating those changes at all,
> > just looking at it from an external perspective.)
> >
> > Is undisclosed paid editing a violation of the terms of use?  Of course
> it
> > is.  But outside of security and safety issues, the WMF has historically
> > left it to the volunteers to interpret the TOU and apply it on individual
> > projects.  Frankly, it's how the WMF manages with only a $75 million
> > budget, which is less than many similarly large and popular sites spend
> on
> > client services, let alone legal fees.  Given the longterm frustration of
> > many community members about fundraising, it may be a very tough sell
> > within our own broad community to have to raise more money for the
> purpose
> > of hiring the staff and paying the bills to address undisclosed paid
> > editing to the point that there is a genuine effect.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On 5 January 2017 at 13:53, David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I should add: I spent a few months following the various AFD queues on
> > > WP lately, and MY GOODNESS THERE ARE SO MANY BLATANT SPAMMERS. What
> > > Jytdog raises is an actual problem. The short reason for a lot of the
> > > Problems with Wikipedia is actually "spammers mean we can't have nice
> > > things".
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 January 2017 at 22:08, Jytdog <jytdogte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Christophe
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for replying!
> > > >
> > > > This is something the board should be paying  attention to, as
> > > undisclosed
> > > > paid editing that causes scandal that reaches mainstream media on a
> > > regular
> > > > basis, damages the reputation of Wikipedia, and is something that
> both
> > > Jimmy
> > > > Wales and Sue Gardner (when she was ED) made strong public statements
> > > about.
> > > >
> > > > See:
> > > > * https://www.ft.com/content/3f726eba-bb6f-11e4-b95c-00144feab7de
> > > > *
> > > > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/01/wikimedia-
> > > foundation-employee-ousted-over-paid-editing/
> > > > *
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/
> > > 2012-10-01/Paid_editing
> > > > *
> > > > http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/19/new-wikipedia-
> > > scandal-uk-head-was-paid-to-promote-topics.html
> > > >
> > > > And there are many more references to this issue in mainstream media.
> > > >
> > > > Doing nothing, especially when WMF representatives make strong
> > statements
> > > > and there are legal remedies available (WMF legal sent a
> > cease-and-desist
> > > > order to Wiki-PR with regard to use of the Wikipedia name even before
> > the
> > > > ToU were strengthened) opens the WMF to criticism and makes those
> > strong
> > > > statements appear to be just empty rhetoric.  Action is possible.
> > Where
> > > is
> > > > it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------ Original Message ------
> > > > From: "Christophe Henner" <chen...@wikimedia.org>
> > > > To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > Sent: 1/2/2017 3:51:49 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies that
> > > offer
> > > > paid editing services
> > > >
> > > >> Heu
> > > >>
> > > >> To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate.
> > > >>
> > > >> So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an
> answer
> > > >> right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't
> > > >> foresee.
> > > >>
> > > >> I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as
> the
> > > >> current focus is on the strategy process.
> > > >>
> > > >> Have a very good day,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit
> :
> > > >>
> > > >> Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are
> > > >> currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not
> > > >> officially from them until after the 9th January.
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia <
> > jytdogte...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>  This is something that people can natter over endlessly.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  The question is to the WMF board and management.  These are the
> > people
> > > >>> who
> > > >>>  can authorize action or not.  Anything else is just talk.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate
> > > >>> decision-making
> > > >>>  level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise
> WP
> > > >>>  editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as
> required
> > > >>> under
> > > >>>  the ToU?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  Thanks.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before
> > > >>> realizing
> > > >>>  > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait
> > here
> > > >>> for
> > > >>>  > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation
> > > >>> behind
> > > >>>  > closed doors.
> > > >>>  >
> > > >>>  > Pine
> > > >>>  >
> > > >>>  >
> > > >>>  > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>  >
> > > >>>  > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF
> > over
> > > >>>  those
> > > >>>  > > not following the Terms of use.
> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that
> > > charge
> > > >>>  for
> > > >>>  > > content;
> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > >    - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position
> > > >>>  > >    - would it drive them to further hide their activities
> > > >>>  > >    - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok
> for
> > a
> > > >>>  > >    company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia.
> we
> > > >>>  already
> > > >>>  > > deal
> > > >>>  > >    with the EUs right to vanish
> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > > sometimes its better to not open the can.  I think a lot more
> > > >>>  discussion
> > > >>>  > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some
> of
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>  can
> > > >>>  > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community
> > > >>> trust(something
> > > >>>  I
> > > >>>  > > think isnt all there at the moment),  before asking the WMF
> > legal
> > > to
> > > >>>  > pick a
> > > >>>  > > fight with anyone.
> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general
> terms
> > > >>> what
> > > >>>  > they
> > > >>>  > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future.
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much
> and
> > > we
> > > >>>  > aren't
> > > >>>  > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do
> > > >>
> > > >> something
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > about
> > > >>>  > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing
> > for
> > > >>
> > > >> this
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early
> stages
> > of
> > > >>>  > > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan.
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > > Happy new year!
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > > Pine
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia <
> > > >>>  > > jytdogte...@gmail.com
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > wrote:
> > > >>>  > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do
> anything
> > > like
> > > >>>  this
> > > >>>  > > > > unless they are instructed by management.  That is why I
> > > >>> directed
> > > >>>  my
> > > >>>  > > > > question to the board and management.
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over
> > the
> > > >>>  > > holidays,
> > > >>>  > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page.
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF
> > > management
> > > >>> on
> > > >>>  > > this.
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > Jytdog
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800
> > > >>>  > > > > > From: Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>
> > > >>>  > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.
> > org
> > > >,
> > > >>>  > > > > >         Wikimedia Legal <le...@wikimedia.org>
> > > >>>  > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing
> > > >>> companies
> > > >>>  > that
> > > >>>  > > > > >         offer paid editing services
> > > >>>  > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > >>>  > > > > >         <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_
> > > >>>  > > > +M=m9E5Bo3aysPAOw@mail.gmail.
> > > >>>  > > > > > com>
> > > >>>  > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of
> > > >>>  > undisclosed
> > > >>>  > > > COI
> > > >>>  > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement
> > of
> > > >>
> > > >> this,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's
> NPOV
> > > and
> > > >>> RS
> > > >>>  > > > policies
> > > >>>  > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might
> be
> > > able
> > > >>
> > > >> to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > recover
> > > >>>  > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by
> > > >>> including
> > > >>
> > > >> a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > > statement
> > > >>>  > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who
> > > >>> engage
> > > >>>  in
> > > >>>  > > > > certain
> > > >>>  > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF
> > for
> > > >>>  > attorney
> > > >>>  > > > > fees,
> > > >>>  > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations
> and
> > > >>>  > > enforcement,
> > > >>>  > > > > and
> > > >>>  > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to
> > > WMF.
> > > >>> My
> > > >>>  > > guess
> > > >>>  > > > is
> > > >>>  > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger
> > > >>> deterrent
> > > >>>  > than
> > > >>>  > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters.
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Pine
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > ------------------------------
> > > >>>  > > ----------
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500
> > > >>>  > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com>
> > > >>>  > > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >>>  > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing
> > companies
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>  > > offer
> > > >>>  > > > > >         paid    editing services
> > > >>>  > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > >>>  > > > > >         <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+
> > > >>>  9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail.
> > > >>>  > > > > > gmail.com>
> > > >>>  > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board
> > has
> > > >>>  > discussed
> > > >>>  > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer
> services
> > to
> > > >>
> > > >> edit
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > > Wikipedia
> > > >>>  > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits
> > (in
> > > >>>  en-WP
> > > >>>  > at
> > > >>>  > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use.  We all know the companies
> > and
> > > >>
> > > >> their
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > > > websites,
> > > >>>  > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc.  I have looked
> and
> > > >>> never
> > > >>>  > > found
> > > >>>  > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP.  I have
> > > looked
> > > >>
> > > >> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > found
> > > >>>  > > > > no
> > > >>>  > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these
> > companies,
> > > >>
> > > >> other
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  > > than
> > > >>>  > > > > > Wiki-PR.
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term
> paid
> > > >>> editor
> > > >>>  > and
> > > >>>  > > > > > brought the matter to ANI:  thread is here
> > > >>>  > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:
> > > >>>  > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/
> Incidents&oldid=757170150#
> > > >>>  > > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_
> > > >>>  > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>.
> > > >>>  > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something
> I
> > > have
> > > >>>  been
> > > >>>  > > > > wanting
> > > >>>  > > > > > to ask about.
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Three questions:
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the
> > > outcomes
> > > >>>  > been?
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action
> against
> > > >>> such
> > > >>>  > > > > companies?
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that?
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > > Thanks.
> > > >>>  > > > > >
> > > >>>  > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>>  > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > >>>  > >
> > > >>>  > > --
> > > >>>  > > GN.
> > > >>>  > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > >>>  > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > >>>  > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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> > > >> President Wikimedia Australia
> > > >> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > >> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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