You seek cultural change but what is it that you want to change? You are
outspoken and as others commented an edge that is more than
confrontational. My appreciation is one where I fail to see the connection
with what we do, it is only about how we do it. That is in my opinion

In many ways, I have found that our community is overly self observed. They
care mostly about their patch and when changes happen they are possessive;
they hardly care about how together with a more communal effort we make
more progress. I give you one example; I got in contact with people who
(take) care of the Black Lunch Table. We discussed the issues with the
project and we worked to manage the project largely using Wikidata. So all
the 900+ people including the "red links" where added to Wikidata. After a
discussion at Wikidata we now use "catalog" with "Black Lunch Table" to
indicate the items involved. The benefits: in stead of three Wikitables
that have to be maintained, Listeria does all three based on the same data.
We found that many other Wikipedias have articles on the people identified
by the Black Lunch Table and the same queries should work on those
Wikipedias as well. The consequence is that more time can be spend on
actually caring about the project, the articles and even the data.

My point is that community is NOT about how we are supposed to do things
because if we had to ask the community for this experiment, we would have
no answer. It is because true people from the community, people who make a
difference for the projects themselves were involved, they allowed for the
experiment and are starting to see their benefit and the benefit for us
all. Now THAT is a cultural change and my challenge is old; I want to
discuss quality with Wiki people and I want us to do better. When we do
better, we will be better able to recognise fake facts.

For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is
their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in
the mud as it stifles initiative?

On 5 March 2017 at 11:21, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pine,
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as
> > having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary,
> and
> > I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our
> mutual
> > goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots
> work
> > better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF
> to
> > make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience
> > works better than demands.
> >
> Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of
> perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency.  A clear
> articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of
> improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no
> apology for presenting that position.  I would have been happy to have been
> able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the
> Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to
> acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous
> community members to initiate a serious engagement.  Perhaps your
> experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to
> hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
> "Rogol"
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