My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a statement about my present experience about translators in general.
The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized area is that there is a small community, and within this community some kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the remaining group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find a retired orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout… On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a new > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have involvement > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be involved / > have translations from TWB. > > James > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from small > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more > interesting > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects. > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland < > > jpbel...@wikimedia.ca > > > wrote: > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again. > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less > > interesting > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles should > > also > > > be > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical > > articles, > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty small. > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new > > > editor! > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles > are > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the > project. > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts > > > more > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see > that > > > > tool > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of > > articles > > > > that > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also > love > > > the > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious. > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages > > in > > > > >> which > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and Italian > > > there > > > > >> is > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in > > question. > > > > The > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. > And > > > for > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few > > > avaliable > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of > > > > > competing articles are pretty low. > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would > > require > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the > > > work > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or so > > > > languages > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a > > second > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to be > > > > >> accepted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the > project?" > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project > which > > > > >> started back in 2011: > > > > >> > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles > > are > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation. > > > > >> > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN > WP. > > > Thus > > > > >> we > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the leads > of > > > the > > > > >> English articles. > > > > >> > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made > efforts > > > more > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see > that > > > > tool > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of > > articles > > > > that > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also > love > > > the > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > >> > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our > partner > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages > > in > > > > >> which > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and Italian > > > there > > > > >> is > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in > > question. > > > > The > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. > And > > > for > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few > > > avaliable > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > >> > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would > > require > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the > > > work > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or so > > > > languages > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a > > second > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to be > > > > >> accepted. > > > > >> > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple > of > > > > >> years. > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn > > how > > > > to > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001 > > (one > > > > for > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into > > > Content > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user name > > and > > > > >> password to the account. > > > > >> > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads > of > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation. > This > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO > > Essential > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts have > > > > >> resulted > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into > > different > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his real > > job > > > > of > > > > >> teaching high school students. > > > > >> > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The > > > > Wikipedian > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically > > single > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a language > > spoken > > > > by > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for > > many > > > > of > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about > it. > > > > >> Google > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our > > > partnerships > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate into > > > > Chinese. > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are > > reviewed > > > by > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups using > > > hackpad > > > > to > > > > >> make it more social. > > > > >> > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) > > > > >> James > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad < > jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D > > > > >> > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k > > > > >> articles, > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? > > > There > > > > >> are > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand > > articles > > > > from > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the > ten > > > > >> thousand > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2]. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word > > > > (about > > > > >> $1 > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into > > another > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in > high-cost > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages > that > > > > lacks > > > > >> > good translation tools. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the > > communities, > > > as > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a > > > > >> community at > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating > > > > >> well-referenced > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be > > avoided. > > > > >> Perhaps > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a > > help. > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they > > does > > > > not > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other > > > > >> projects > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they > > > need > > > > a > > > > >> lot > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our > inherit > > > > bias? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > [1] > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have > > > > >> > [2] > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > , > > > > >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > > unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> James Heilman > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l > > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
