Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally. There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles, but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list. Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are from a big western language or a minority language.
The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that minor languages can't get started because they lack content*! On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com> wrote: > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents in > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form of > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation. > > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and > flourishing Wikipedia communities. > > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion, > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes. > > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already wrote, > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki scope: > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with different > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language. > > Vito > > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>: > > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not > > sure if it is possible to agree on this. > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness. > > > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed > in a > > > better way by others: > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations > themselves; > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural > > identity > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only > focuses > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet; > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture; > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable > > > Wikipedians. > > > > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise > > texts > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies > > > (wiktionary). > > > > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should > be > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any > of > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about > > him > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake > > "literary" > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" > > in > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one. > > > > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create, > > > knowledge. > > > > > > Vito > > > > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was > merely a > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in general. > > > > > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a > > specialized > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community > some > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the > > > remaining > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and > > there > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public > health > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, > but > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you > find > > > > a retired > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout… > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator > > into a > > > > new > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have > > > > involvement > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of > the > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be > > > involved / > > > > > have translations from TWB. > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad < > jeb...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from > > > small > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more > > > > > interesting > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland < > > > > > > jpbel...@wikimedia.ca > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the > > > concerned > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my > > > > simple > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad < > > jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, > > the > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles > > > should > > > > > > also > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie > vertical > > > > > > articles, > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty > > > > small. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into > a > > > new > > > > > > > editor! > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad < > > > > jeb...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all > > > articles > > > > > are > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for > translation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the > > > > > project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made > > > > efforts > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love > to > > > see > > > > > that > > > > > > > > tool > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists > of > > > > > > articles > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would > > also > > > > > love > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty > > > > obvious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our > > > > partner > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that > > > > languages > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and > > > > Italian > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics > in > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert > > > Wikipedia. > > > > > And > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often > > few > > > > > > > avaliable > > > > > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the > > chance > > > > of > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this > > would > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are > > taking > > > > the > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 > > or > > > so > > > > > > > > languages > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations > > undergo > > > a > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain > tests > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > >> accepted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". > It > > > is > > > > as > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the > > > > > project?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman < > > > jmh...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation > > project > > > > > which > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all > > > > articles > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for > translation. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present > on > > > EN > > > > > WP. > > > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the > > > leads > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> English articles. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF > made > > > > > efforts > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love > to > > > see > > > > > that > > > > > > > > tool > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists > of > > > > > > articles > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would > > also > > > > > love > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with > our > > > > > partner > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that > > > > languages > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and > > > > Italian > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics > in > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert > > > Wikipedia. > > > > > And > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often > > few > > > > > > > avaliable > > > > > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this > > would > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are > > taking > > > > the > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 > > or > > > so > > > > > > > > languages > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations > > undergo > > > a > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain > tests > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > >> accepted. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a > > > > couple > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> years. > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians > or > > > > learn > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like > > > TransSW001 > > > > > > (one > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated > > > into > > > > > > > Content > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the > > user > > > > name > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> password to the account. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 > > > leads > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for > > > translation. > > > > > This > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the > WHO > > > > > > Essential > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The > > efforts > > > > have > > > > > > > > >> resulted > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated > into > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to > > his > > > > real > > > > > > job > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. > > The > > > > > > > > Wikipedian > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has > > > basically > > > > > > single > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a > > > language > > > > > > spoken > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is > > that > > > > for > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online > > > about > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > >> Google > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. > Our > > > > > > > partnerships > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to > translate > > > > into > > > > > > > > Chinese. > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations > are > > > > > > reviewed > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups > > > using > > > > > > > hackpad > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > >> make it more social. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) > > > > > > > > >> James > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad < > > > > > jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more > > than > > > > 65k > > > > > > > > >> articles, > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid > > > > translators? > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > >> are > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the > thousand > > > > > > articles > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and > and > > > the > > > > > ten > > > > > > > > >> thousand > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2]. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 > > per > > > > word > > > > > > > > (about > > > > > > > > >> $1 > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles > > into > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in > > > > > high-cost > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for > > > languages > > > > > that > > > > > > > > lacks > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the > > > > > > communities, > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to > > > build a > > > > > > > > >> community at > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only > translating > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could > be > > > > > > avoided. > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would > > be > > > a > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, > but > > > > they > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good > articles > > > > other > > > > > > > > >> projects > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, > > so > > > > they > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > >> lot > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify > our > > > > > inherit > > > > > > > > bias? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > [1] > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have > > > > > > > > >> > [2] > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject= > > > > > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > > > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > 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