I see no reason to shut down projects, nor to tell participants to stop
collaborating on X in the spirit of a Wiki.

I see a great reason not to limit conversation about what a project around
X *could be* to the current state of a project that has that domain name.
There is plenty of energy around using wikis for news, or wikis for
courses, which is absolutely not captured by any of our current Projects or
projects.

We need
* Flexible ways to modify, fork, and experiment with names and projects
* Flexible ways to redirect, merge, and split projects and namespaces (as
half-successfully attempted with the incubator) without losing history or
editability

SJ

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 10:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed, I am not a fan of Wikinews and I do not particularly see the
> project as in any way successful. However, if the project is shut down
> against the will of the community (I now mean the Wikinews community, or
> perhaps even specifically the English Wikinews community), I will ask
> myself  whether Wikivoyage (I am active in the Russian Wikivoyage, where we
> have a couple of dozen active users) could also be shut down one day
> against the will of the community, just because we are not successful
> competing with the brands like Lonely Planet, DK, or Michelin, for example.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all
> > volunteers that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day.
> > Is that a message we want to broadcast?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk
> > Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand
> > system for our 2030 goals]
> >
> > Hello,
> > Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It
> did
> > not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the movement should try out thing
> > from time to time.
> > But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept.
> > Kind regards
> > Ziko
> >
> >
> >
> > Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> schrieb am Di. 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:56:
> >
> > > Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction here in the self-image
> > and
> > > internal narrative of the projects and movement.  A classic branding
> > issue
> > > ;)
> > > * On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about
> > topical
> > > subprojects (what do you call 'the Current Events specialists on the
> > major
> > > language Wikpiedias'?  some obvious names have already been taken)
> > > * On the other, for the few Names that we assign to Projects, we
> > > overspecify what they mean ('Wikinews is original news reporting or
> > > synthesis, done on a wikinews.org site').
> > >
> > > We propagate this confusion of identity to those outside the projects
> > > trying to understand them; which in turn leads to misunderstanding in
> the
> > > world at large, and fewer potential collaborators joining the projects:
> > >      I was recently at a gathering of international fact-checkers.
>  They
> > > all prized Wikipedia as a model for what rapid collective editing can
> > > accomplish; assumed wikinews and wikitribune were the best efforts to
> > date
> > > of applying that to current events; and began an enthusiastic
> discussion
> > > about how to do it better.  When I pointed out that Wikipedias did
> > exactly
> > > what they were discussing, for the most popular news, this was
> startling
> > > and satisfying to them.  However as there is no central cafe or village
> > > pump for current events editors, and what portals do exist are
> impossible
> > > to find for all but the most persistent, it is not obvious how to
> engage
> > > with them...
> > >
> > > This is a challenge of naming + identity that really holds us back:
> ways
> > > for people to form groups, projects, message streams; and channel,
> > > advertise, amplify, polish them; use them for flash projects and
> > > coalescence, for awareness and thanks.  We have tried many small steps
> in
> > > this direction but have never made groups or hashtags work as simple,
> > > functional tools of alignment.
> > >
> > > SJ
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies
> > > that
> > > > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH)
> are a
> > > > poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
> > Wikipedia
> > > is
> > > > a success as a news-gathering operation.  These seem inconsistent to
> > me.
> > > > However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way forward
> > is
> > > to
> > > > fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia.  Is that right?
> > > >
> > > > JPS
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > > > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent
> with
> > > its
> > > > > > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason.  Maybe the WMF
> > > should
> > > > > > sort out the demarcation issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jennifer,
> > > > >
> > > > > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the
> > vast
> > > > > majority of the community has converged on the conclusion that
> > Wikinews
> > > > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental
> > > properties.
> > > > >
> > > > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the
> truth
> > > > given
> > > > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing
> direct
> > > > > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies
> > that
> > > > make
> > > > > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research
> > > > > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources
> > > > > Wikipedia:V - verifiability
> > > > > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism
> > > > >
> > > > > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this
> > mismatch
> > > > and
> > > > > realize it is a poor fit.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should
> > > > celebrate
> > > > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve
> minute
> > > to
> > > > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the world as
> we
> > > know
> > > > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of reality
> –
> > > the
> > > > > Wikipedia article.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of
> > > > > Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look:
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
> > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
> > > > >
> > > > > -Andrew
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> > 4266
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-- 
Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
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