Our brand is already on it in these cases, and yes it would be sending a message - "We want you to risk your time and effort on our projects but we may later decide to discard everything you worked for" Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Pryor-Summers Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:19 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] Peter Putting your brand on a project that is visibly failing also sends out a message, to the world at large. Is that a message you want to broadcast? JPS On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:32 PM Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all > volunteers that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day. > Is that a message we want to broadcast? > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk > Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > system for our 2030 goals] > > Hello, > Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It did > not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the movement should try out thing > from time to time. > But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept. > Kind regards > Ziko > > > > Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> schrieb am Di. 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:56: > > > Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction here in the self-image > and > > internal narrative of the projects and movement. A classic branding > issue > > ;) > > * On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about > topical > > subprojects (what do you call 'the Current Events specialists on the > major > > language Wikpiedias'? some obvious names have already been taken) > > * On the other, for the few Names that we assign to Projects, we > > overspecify what they mean ('Wikinews is original news reporting or > > synthesis, done on a wikinews.org site'). > > > > We propagate this confusion of identity to those outside the projects > > trying to understand them; which in turn leads to misunderstanding in the > > world at large, and fewer potential collaborators joining the projects: > > I was recently at a gathering of international fact-checkers. They > > all prized Wikipedia as a model for what rapid collective editing can > > accomplish; assumed wikinews and wikitribune were the best efforts to > date > > of applying that to current events; and began an enthusiastic discussion > > about how to do it better. When I pointed out that Wikipedias did > exactly > > what they were discussing, for the most popular news, this was startling > > and satisfying to them. However as there is no central cafe or village > > pump for current events editors, and what portals do exist are impossible > > to find for all but the most persistent, it is not obvious how to engage > > with them... > > > > This is a challenge of naming + identity that really holds us back: ways > > for people to form groups, projects, message streams; and channel, > > advertise, amplify, polish them; use them for flash projects and > > coalescence, for awareness and thanks. We have tried many small steps in > > this direction but have never made groups or hashtags work as simple, > > functional tools of alignment. > > > > SJ > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies > > that > > > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH) are a > > > poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand, > Wikipedia > > is > > > a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent to > me. > > > However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way forward > is > > to > > > fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right? > > > > > > JPS > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > > > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language) > Wikipedia > > > > seems > > > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent with > > its > > > > > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason. Maybe the WMF > > should > > > > > sort out the demarcation issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer, > > > > > > > > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the > vast > > > > majority of the community has converged on the conclusion that > Wikinews > > > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental > > properties. > > > > > > > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the truth > > > given > > > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing direct > > > > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies > that > > > make > > > > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting: > > > > > > > > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research > > > > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources > > > > Wikipedia:V - verifiability > > > > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism > > > > > > > > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this > mismatch > > > and > > > > realize it is a poor fit. > > > > > > > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should > > > celebrate > > > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve minute > > to > > > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the world as we > > know > > > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of reality – > > the > > > > Wikipedia article. > > > > > > > > If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of > > > > Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look: > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html > > > > > > > > -Andrew > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > -- > > Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 > 4266 > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>