Hoi,
No it is an administrative process. It follows its own rules IN ORDER TO do
what it does. The notion that material is to be useful to Wikipedia is NOT
covered by any legal restraints. This notion that is alive and well, the
notion that copyright can be retroactively applied never mind the original
copyright holder is that as well.
Yes, the underlying work is legal, the process is definitely not and
consequently the process has to be revisited, is to be revisited in order
for OTRS to function for all of us.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:09, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote:
> to quote Gerard
>
> There is no law that insists on the existing rules and regulations as put
> > forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly unfit
>
> for purpose.
>
>
> OTRS is very much a legal process because its related to Copyright laws,
> both in the US and in the country in which they reside. Every
> transaction(image upload) is a person giving away their rights in regards
> to that work OTRS needs to ensure that the person is fully aware of the
> consequences of that action. OTRS holds an absolute record of that action
> of when it took place, it protects all parties should there be an issue in
> the future in particular the WMF and our volunteers who were involved in
> the process.
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 13:57, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Thank you for demonstrating the extend OTRS is not fit for purpose. I
> > understand that OTRS is governed by rules and regulations but a reference
> > is made to "legal". There is no law that insists on the existing rules
> and
> > regulations as put forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly
> unfit
> > for purpose.
> >
> > Particularly the line: "- it must not say the use is to, for, or on
> > Wikipedia" is problematic because either this is a list as stated what
> OTRS
> > adheres to or, it is not. It is a negative and as such it reads that it
> is
> > NOT about any Wikipedia and its vagaries.
> >
> > Yet again it is brought to the attention that the negative attitude is to
> > be acceptable because of a perceived workload. Apparently it is easier to
> > say no than to say yes and that is in itself mystifying.
> >
> > OTRS has not moved on with the time and as such it does not even know
> > selfies... An issue not confined to OTRS is that understanding of
> copyright
> > and licensing is dim anyway. When a copyright holder provides us with
> > material, it is licensed by the copyright holder to be available under a
> > WMF permitted license. When the copyright holder provides it under a
> > secondary license elsewhere or when our material is used elsewhere with a
> > more restrictive license, it does not follow that we are in breach of
> > copyright. I have fought such "delete on sight" battles and the only
> result
> > is no response on the image that was to be speedily deleted. The rule
> > should be; when material is provided to us, the license is checked at the
> > time and any and all issues NOT involving the copyright holder are to be
> > seen as irrelevant.
> >
> > OTRS is a Wikimedia Foundation sanctioned function. It insists to
> function
> > as is and therefore *a new mandate is required* because as is, it does
> the
> > worst possible service. There is no Wikipedia, there are 300+, there are
> > other projects that require a functioning Commons and as it is, it is not
> > fit for purpose.
> >
> > You may remember when English Wikipedia had egg on its face because of
> the
> > deletion of what became a Nobel prize winner. There are MANY science
> awards
> > and we want a picture for all awardees in addition, in the Scholia tool
> we
> > want pictures of any and all people that authored a paper.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 02:06, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > For legal reasons OTRS requires very specific wording, it declines
> > > permissions that fail to meet that very strict wording.
> > >
> > > The person must;
> > >
> > > - establish their authority to license the image
> > > - the license must be a free license PD or CC-by
> > > - it must not say the use is to, for, or on Wikipedia
> > > - it needs a URL to associate the permission with
> > >
> > > If the media meets these requirements than it will be accept, if it
> > doesnt
> > > it gets rejected. Scope is something that gets decided on on Commons.
> > >
> > > Wikidata has had an impact on scope, quite literally everything is now
> > > within scope. We havent even yet got to the issue about Wikidata items
> > > including trademarked logos and copyrighted works for which Commons
> cant
> > > have images under fairuse
> > >
> > > Commons has fallen behind when it comes to the capability of taking
> > photos
> > > of ones self (selfies) the default position when Commons started was
> that
> > > taking a high quality photograph of yourself wasnt possible there must
> > have
> > > been someone else pushing the button. What happens is Commons asks for
> > the
> > > subject to obtain permission from the photographer and submit that to
> > OTRS,
> > > the systems falls over because the photographer cant prove that the
> photo
> > > they took of themselves was taken by themselves because the underlying
> > > assumption is that that isnt possible. The vast majority of agents on
> > the
> > > commons permission queue are people from commons who have learnt the
> > > policies and have the tools to do the work.
> > >
> > > OTRS permission behaves as expected because there is a very narrow
> > > definition of whats acceptable, anything that doesnt fit gets rejected.
> > The
> > > very real need to be pro-active in ensuring the permissions queue
> doesnt
> > > get overwhelmed and backlogged contributes to the fact that the grey
> is
> > > treated as black -- close it, delete it, move on.
> > >
> > > In an ideal scenario a closer relationship with google via flickr to
> make
> > > it possible for Wikidata to link in there as well would be a potential
> > > solution to those areas where copyright is an issue as it would still
> > > enable the ability of having an image accessible via a link.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Michael Maggs <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This has nothing to do with Commons only supporting Wikipedia.
> Commons
> > > > supports ALL of the Wikimedia projects, and always has.
> > > >
> > > > As is quite clearly set out in the Commons SCOPE policy, “a file that
> > is
> > > > used in good faith on a Wikimedia project is always considered
> > > > educational”, and hence is in scope. Of course, that includes
> Wikidata.
> > > >
> > > > Under the same policy, Commons does not editorialise on behalf of any
> > of
> > > > the projects, and an image that is acceptable to Wikidata is by
> design
> > > > acceptable to Commons.
> > > >
> > > > If the Wikidata community considers that an item on an individual is
> > not
> > > > acceptable (for example because it has been added solely for
> > > > self-promotion), Wikidata can - under its own rules - delete it, and
> > > hence
> > > > the link to the image on Commons.
> > > >
> > > > Commons would then delete the image as not in use (and not otherwise
> > > > educational).
> > > >
> > > > None of this relies in any way on the specific definition of
> ‘notable’
> > as
> > > > used on the Wikipedias; that’s simply not relevant.
> > > >
> > > > The problem here seems to be an additional hurdle that has apparently
> > > been
> > > > added to the guidance given to OTRS volunteers. OTRS has so far as I
> > > know
> > > > no mandate to decline images that fall within Commons Scope, and if
> > they
> > > > are indeed doing that, the guidance should be changed.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > > On 25 Feb 2020, at 16:11, Gerard Meijssen <
> [email protected]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only
> > support
> > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our
> > standards.
> > > We
> > > > > are actively asking them for images to illustrate our information.
> > The
> > > > best
> > > > > suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are
> deleted
> > at
> > > > > Commons.
> > > > >
> > > > > When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label
> > Wikipedia,
> > > > it
> > > > > is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other"
> projects.
> > > The
> > > > > projects who operate to different standards who have notability
> > > criteria
> > > > > different from English Wikipedia.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > GerardM
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [email protected]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [email protected]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > GN.
> > >
> > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration*
> > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together*
> > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020
> > > August 5 to 9
> > > hosted by ESEAP
> > >
> > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [email protected]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
>
> *Power of Diverse Collaboration*
> *Sharing knowledge brings people together*
> Wikimania Bangkok 2020
> August 5 to 9
> hosted by ESEAP
>
> Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
