This is a slight tangent, but please let's be slightly more precise with wording about what free media content Wikimedia Commons legitimately hosts.
The scope of Wikimedia Commons is to host all free media with any rationale for "reasonable educational reuse".[1] The vast majority of content never will be used on any other sister Wikimedia project. This means: * "Reasonable" in a very wide sense, including cultural value, historical value, illustrative use. So some random modern photograph of a couple kissing in the street might be out of scope, but if the photograph was taken 80 years ago, then it has historic value, or if the photograph was at a pride march, then it probably has cultural and illustrative value. * "Reuse" is anywhere and "educational" is subject to generous and very wide interpretations of potential value. This means media that someone would find quite interesting for illustrating a school project, or as a pretty screensaver on their phone, or because it's something illustrative about cats to post on Twitter. Consequently, Wikimedia Commons is *not* limited to what might be "notable" for an encyclopaedia, so there is no automatic deletion for yet another photograph of someone's breakfast, nor even for a selfie photo, so long as there can be a case made by anyone for reasonable reuse. The only areas where additional guidelines often lead to deletions (and difficult deletion discussion), is for media with demonstrated issues of invasion of privacy or consent,[2] apparent harassment, or a not very special photo of private parts[3] of a specific type for which we happen to have plenty to choose from already. Lastly, policies do evolve, albeit very slowly, and no local policy overrides the WMF top-level policies such as on privacy or harassment. This tangent was not about copyright, so before anyone points it out, "free media" has a quite specific definition at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing. But that's a rabbit-hole of its own. Links 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_scope 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people 3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Nudity#New_uploads Fae On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:56, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hoi, > Commons is a project with a specific purpose. It is to host all media that > fits the use of any other project. As it is English Wikipedia notability > standards are used to justify why files are not to be kept on Commons. This > is contrary to its very purpose, it is not acceptable and it is not for the > Commons community to decide otherwise. > > When at OTRS a license is given for the unfettered use of media respecting > an approved license, there is no argument, no rule inside OTRS itself that > is applicable particularly when that media is explicitly asked for on > another project. > Thanks, > Gerard > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:39, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Scope is a Commons community decision, > > OTRS is solely about licensing > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 15:30, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hoi, > > > No it is an administrative process. It follows its own rules IN ORDER TO > > do > > > what it does. The notion that material is to be useful to Wikipedia is > > NOT > > > covered by any legal restraints. This notion that is alive and well, the > > > notion that copyright can be retroactively applied never mind the > > original > > > copyright holder is that as well. > > > > > > Yes, the underlying work is legal, the process is definitely not and > > > consequently the process has to be revisited, is to be revisited in order > > > for OTRS to function for all of us. > > > Thanks, > > > GerardM > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:09, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > to quote Gerard > > > > > > > > There is no law that insists on the existing rules and regulations as > > put > > > > > forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly unfit > > > > > > > > for purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > OTRS is very much a legal process because its related to Copyright > > laws, > > > > both in the US and in the country in which they reside. Every > > > > transaction(image upload) is a person giving away their rights in > > regards > > > > to that work OTRS needs to ensure that the person is fully aware of the > > > > consequences of that action. OTRS holds an absolute record of that > > > action > > > > of when it took place, it protects all parties should there be an issue > > > in > > > > the future in particular the WMF and our volunteers who were involved > > in > > > > the process. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 13:57, Gerard Meijssen < > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > Thank you for demonstrating the extend OTRS is not fit for purpose. I > > > > > understand that OTRS is governed by rules and regulations but a > > > reference > > > > > is made to "legal". There is no law that insists on the existing > > rules > > > > and > > > > > regulations as put forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly > > > > unfit > > > > > for purpose. > > > > > > > > > > Particularly the line: "- it must not say the use is to, for, or on > > > > > Wikipedia" is problematic because either this is a list as stated > > what > > > > OTRS > > > > > adheres to or, it is not. It is a negative and as such it reads that > > it > > > > is > > > > > NOT about any Wikipedia and its vagaries. > > > > > > > > > > Yet again it is brought to the attention that the negative attitude > > is > > > to > > > > > be acceptable because of a perceived workload. Apparently it is > > easier > > > to > > > > > say no than to say yes and that is in itself mystifying. > > > > > > > > > > OTRS has not moved on with the time and as such it does not even know > > > > > selfies... An issue not confined to OTRS is that understanding of > > > > copyright > > > > > and licensing is dim anyway. When a copyright holder provides us with > > > > > material, it is licensed by the copyright holder to be available > > under > > > a > > > > > WMF permitted license. When the copyright holder provides it under a > > > > > secondary license elsewhere or when our material is used elsewhere > > > with a > > > > > more restrictive license, it does not follow that we are in breach of > > > > > copyright. I have fought such "delete on sight" battles and the only > > > > result > > > > > is no response on the image that was to be speedily deleted. The rule > > > > > should be; when material is provided to us, the license is checked at > > > the > > > > > time and any and all issues NOT involving the copyright holder are to > > > be > > > > > seen as irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > > OTRS is a Wikimedia Foundation sanctioned function. It insists to > > > > function > > > > > as is and therefore *a new mandate is required* because as is, it > > does > > > > the > > > > > worst possible service. There is no Wikipedia, there are 300+, there > > > are > > > > > other projects that require a functioning Commons and as it is, it is > > > not > > > > > fit for purpose. > > > > > > > > > > You may remember when English Wikipedia had egg on its face because > > of > > > > the > > > > > deletion of what became a Nobel prize winner. There are MANY science > > > > awards > > > > > and we want a picture for all awardees in addition, in the Scholia > > tool > > > > we > > > > > want pictures of any and all people that authored a paper. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 02:06, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > For legal reasons OTRS requires very specific wording, it declines > > > > > > permissions that fail to meet that very strict wording. > > > > > > > > > > > > The person must; > > > > > > > > > > > > - establish their authority to license the image > > > > > > - the license must be a free license PD or CC-by > > > > > > - it must not say the use is to, for, or on Wikipedia > > > > > > - it needs a URL to associate the permission with > > > > > > > > > > > > If the media meets these requirements than it will be accept, if it > > > > > doesnt > > > > > > it gets rejected. Scope is something that gets decided on on > > Commons. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikidata has had an impact on scope, quite literally everything is > > > now > > > > > > within scope. We havent even yet got to the issue about Wikidata > > > items > > > > > > including trademarked logos and copyrighted works for which Commons > > > > cant > > > > > > have images under fairuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Commons has fallen behind when it comes to the capability of taking > > > > > photos > > > > > > of ones self (selfies) the default position when Commons started > > was > > > > that > > > > > > taking a high quality photograph of yourself wasnt possible there > > > must > > > > > have > > > > > > been someone else pushing the button. What happens is Commons asks > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > subject to obtain permission from the photographer and submit that > > to > > > > > OTRS, > > > > > > the systems falls over because the photographer cant prove that the > > > > photo > > > > > > they took of themselves was taken by themselves because the > > > underlying > > > > > > assumption is that that isnt possible. The vast majority of agents > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > commons permission queue are people from commons who have learnt > > the > > > > > > policies and have the tools to do the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > OTRS permission behaves as expected because there is a very narrow > > > > > > definition of whats acceptable, anything that doesnt fit gets > > > rejected. > > > > > The > > > > > > very real need to be pro-active in ensuring the permissions queue > > > > doesnt > > > > > > get overwhelmed and backlogged contributes to the fact that the > > grey > > > > is > > > > > > treated as black -- close it, delete it, move on. > > > > > > > > > > > > In an ideal scenario a closer relationship with google via flickr > > to > > > > make > > > > > > it possible for Wikidata to link in there as well would be a > > > potential > > > > > > solution to those areas where copyright is an issue as it would > > > still > > > > > > enable the ability of having an image accessible via a link. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Michael Maggs <mich...@maggs.name> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has nothing to do with Commons only supporting Wikipedia. > > > > Commons > > > > > > > supports ALL of the Wikimedia projects, and always has. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As is quite clearly set out in the Commons SCOPE policy, “a file > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > > > used in good faith on a Wikimedia project is always considered > > > > > > > educational”, and hence is in scope. Of course, that includes > > > > Wikidata. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under the same policy, Commons does not editorialise on behalf of > > > any > > > > > of > > > > > > > the projects, and an image that is acceptable to Wikidata is by > > > > design > > > > > > > acceptable to Commons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Wikidata community considers that an item on an individual > > > is > > > > > not > > > > > > > acceptable (for example because it has been added solely for > > > > > > > self-promotion), Wikidata can - under its own rules - delete it, > > > and > > > > > > hence > > > > > > > the link to the image on Commons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Commons would then delete the image as not in use (and not > > > otherwise > > > > > > > educational). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this relies in any way on the specific definition of > > > > ‘notable’ > > > > > as > > > > > > > used on the Wikipedias; that’s simply not relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem here seems to be an additional hurdle that has > > > apparently > > > > > > been > > > > > > > added to the guidance given to OTRS volunteers. OTRS has so far > > > as I > > > > > > know > > > > > > > no mandate to decline images that fall within Commons Scope, and > > if > > > > > they > > > > > > > are indeed doing that, the guidance should be changed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Feb 2020, at 16:11, Gerard Meijssen < > > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > > > > Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only > > > > > support > > > > > > > > Wikipedia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our > > > > > standards. > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > are actively asking them for images to illustrate our > > > information. > > > > > The > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are > > > > deleted > > > > > at > > > > > > > > Commons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label > > > > > Wikipedia, > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other" > > > > projects. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > projects who operate to different standards who have notability > > > > > > criteria > > > > > > > > different from English Wikipedia. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > GN. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > > > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > > > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020 > > > > > > August 5 to 9 > > > > > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > > > Noongarpedia: > > https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > GN. > > > > > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020 > > > > August 5 to 9 > > > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020 > > August 5 to 9 > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l 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