Hoi,
Did we regress from a previous situation - yes
Is the software still available to us - yes
Do we have a serious issue with providing a service to our public - yes
Is it is just one issue or is it one of many issues - one of many
Has it improved over time, you tell me yes and you can point out the
veracity because of..
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 at 14:31, Dariusz Jemielniak <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Does some basic functionality work? Sure.
> Is it as good as Google? Nope.
> Is it as good as we can make it? Most likely not.
>
> BTW, we are not doing great in searches irrespective of
> multilingualism issues, but we have notably improved over time.
>
> best,
>
> Dariusz Jemielniak, "pundit"
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:33 AM Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> The notion that search works because "there is somewhere a thingie that
>> you first have to select and oh it is a bit out the way" is an argument
>> that can only be made by someone who invested a lot in it. The sad thing
>> is, did you ever wonder if it worked because it does not. You did not
>> consider a public, a user story fulfilled.
>>
>> My user story is simply this: A nine year old seeks images of a subject
>> to illustrate some homework he has to do. He types in the name of the
>> subject and gets results he can choose from. The nine year old reads and
>> writes in any of the 200+ languages we support. The teacher of the child is
>> aware of the necessity of labels in Wikidata and checked them. In the
>> process helping anybody to find the subjects that are in the curriculum.
>>
>> Search is what the Wikimedia org provides. The problem with search has
>> been known for as long as Commons exists. The Commons community has not had
>> a material impact on search in all this time. Google does allow you to
>> search with good effect for a "თახვი" but what it brings up is not freely
>> licensed. It is therefore on the board of the Wikimedia Foundation to be
>> aware of this problem and give it the attention that it requires.
>>
>> Let's be blunt; Google et all are increasingly good at the game of
>> providing information.The Wikimedia projects not as essential as they used
>> to be. We find this in our traffic numbers; we are dropping in the rankings
>> and we have no response.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 19:59, Mike Peel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just a reminder that multilingual search already works for Commons
>>> categories, for example search for 'telescopio lovell':
>>>
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=telescopio+lovell&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=page
>>>
>>> This is because the Wikidata Infobox on Commons displays multilingual
>>> information, and also includes search engine optimisation (i.e.,
>>> includes all language labels from Wikidata in the searchable source).
>>> We're nearly at 3.5 million categories using the infobox now (about half
>>> of all Commons categories...).
>>>
>>> It's a bit hidden out of the way now, though, since the default search
>>> is for images, and you need to click on 'Categories and pages'.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 18/7/21 18:49:28, Mohamed ElGohary wrote:
>>> > I must say that in my experience along the years is that search is not
>>> a
>>> > very strong feature in all Wikimedia projects, commons or not.
>>> > Personally I use commercial search engines to custom search Wikimedia
>>> > projects, and I include the Creative Commons search
>>> > <https://search.creativecommons.org/> for photos.
>>> >
>>> > I would love if there are efforts to include multilingualism and
>>> better
>>> > search in Wikimedia projects. For Wikimedia Commons specifically, I
>>> > would love to see (more) cooperation with Creative Commons and other
>>> > like-minded entities for better search results for all languages.
>>> >
>>> > ircpresident
>>> > --
>>> > photo
>>> > *Mohamed ElGohary*
>>> > Lingua Manager and Board Member, Global Voices
>>> >
>>> > https://globalvoices.org/lingua <https://globalvoices.org/lingua>
>>> >
>>> > <http://globalvoices.org/author/Mohamed-ElGohary/>
>>> > <http://ircpresident.com> <http://facebook.com/GVlingua>
>>> > <http://twitter.com/GVLingua>
>>> > <http://plus.google.com/+MohamedElGohary/>
>>> > <http://linkedin.com/in/ircpresident> <
>>> http://instragram.com/ircpresident>
>>> >
>>> > Key: 0x5D13669E Fingerprints: 7838 7FE7 E0E4 BF88 0024 2703 B452 E75A
>>> > 5D13 669E
>>> >
>>> > Amplifying Global Voices stories by the translation into dozens of
>>> > languages with the help of hundreds of volunteer translators. We are
>>> > Global Voices Lingua <http://globalvoices.org/lingua>!
>>> >
>>> > <http://globalvoices.org/donate> Donate to Global Voices
>>> > <http://globalvoices.org/donate>
>>> >
>>> >> On 16-Jul-21 10:09:33 PM, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
>>>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hoi,
>>> >> You have it the wrong way around. Our projects have a function, they
>>> >> exist for us to share in the sum of all knowledge. When a search
>>> >> engine provides results to a public in any language, it does not make
>>> >> a difference to how Commons is run. Your claim that finding pictures
>>> >> is only allowed when a community allows for it exposes a bias that is
>>> >> fundamentally wrong. What Commons contains is freely licensed and
>>> >> consequently anyone can search it, use it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Your claim that people worked hard to make Commons usable in other
>>> >> languages is fine. However, the proof of the pudding is in the
>>> eating.
>>> >> It is the purpose of Commons that its images are actually used, used
>>> >> world wide in any language. You claim that it is the community that
>>> >> allows for re-use. It is not, it is the license. It is the purpose of
>>> >> the Wikimedia movement to make the most of what we have and do. It is
>>> >> the responsibility of the Board to ensure that we do.
>>> >> Thanks,
>>> >> GerardM
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 at 20:39, Fæ <[email protected]
>>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> It would be far more effective to make community and project
>>> proposals
>>> >> or run a wider community RFC about how the "common" projects work
>>> >> together rather than become a board member to make a difference in
>>> >> this area. The detail of how projects work and their policies is
>>> not
>>> >> something that the WMF board is well placed to dictate. Trustees
>>> are
>>> >> busy with WMF operational oversight and strategy, not lobbyists
>>> for
>>> >> how technical implementation might work.
>>> >>
>>> >> A board that starts dictating how projects must function, is
>>> probably
>>> >> a board that volunteers would never elect, if they have a choice.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks,
>>> >> Fae
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 at 15:26, Gerard Meijssen
>>> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hoi,
>>> >> > You make your point and you are essentially wrong. When you
>>> >> search in English for "beaver" you do not find beavers. They are
>>> >> mostly false positives related in one way or other to "beaver" but
>>> >> they do not depict a beaver[1] . This is true for all languages.
>>> >> My point is that Commons is not useful when people cannot find
>>> >> what they are looking for. Compare this to a search using the
>>> >> Wikidata labels linked to "depicts" statements in any and all
>>> >> languages, this is where they DO find beavers [2] (this app is by
>>> >> Hay Kranen and it shows the same functionality special:mediasearch
>>> >> used to have in a previous iteration).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I am totally aware that it is only a subset of the images at
>>> >> Commons that can be found in this way. It however works for a
>>> >> general public and it does work in any language. The current
>>> >> search is however not functional when you "just" want to find a
>>> >> picture. When you argue that special purpose files with a Spanish
>>> >> description are a reason not to provide a functional search, I do
>>> >> wonder what Commons is for. Why have the biggest freely licensed
>>> >> resource of media files when it has no functional search, when it
>>> >> is essentially closed in all languages to the public.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The reason why I aim to be a member of the board is exactly that
>>> >> we need a public for all the work that we have done. I do not mind
>>> >> when we start with a minimal service that works over a service
>>> >> that does not bring us the attention to Commons that it deserves.
>>> >> We do not truly value the data that we have.
>>> >> > Thanks,
>>> >> > GerardM
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > [1]
>>> >>
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=image&search=beaver
>>> >> <
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=image&search=beaver
>>> >
>>> >> > [2]
>>> >> https://hay.toolforge.org/sdsearch/#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q181191
>>> >> <
>>> https://hay.toolforge.org/sdsearch/#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q181191>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 at 13:42, Fæ <[email protected]
>>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 at 17:32, Gerard Meijssen
>>> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Hoi.
>>> >> >> > One reason why I am a candidate for the board of the WMF is
>>> >> that in my opinion one function is lacking. There is no reflection
>>> >> of the fact that all that we do is to share the sum of all
>>> >> knowledge. It is not only about the creation of content but also
>>> >> about sharing the sum all the knowledge that is available to us.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > For obvious reasons, the contributors to the projects are
>>> >> heard. I do not subscribe to the notion that the "projects" need
>>> >> to be in the organisational chart. With 300 languages and
>>> >> potentially multiple projects for each language it is impossible
>>> >> to have equity among these projects. The point that I have made
>>> >> repeatedly: Commons is not useful in any language but English,
>>> >> this does not need to be as there is software that works equally
>>> >> well in any language dependent on the availability of labels in
>>> >> Wikidata. This is just one example, there are more.
>>> >> >> > Thanks,
>>> >> >> > GerardM
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> "Commons is not useful in any language but English" is
>>> >> nonsense. The
>>> >> >> idea that displaying "labels" and imposed transclusions from
>>> >> Wikidata
>>> >> >> would make, say, a Commons image page Spanish description of a
>>> PDF
>>> >> >> book in Spanish redundant, and an English description is all
>>> that
>>> >> >> Commons should aim for, disregards the valued work that many
>>> >> Commons
>>> >> >> contributors make to keep the project multilingual.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I would hope that the WMF board would understand how the
>>> projects
>>> >> >> function and their value to public reuse rather better than
>>> this.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Thanks,
>>> >> >> Fae
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>> >> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> <
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>>> >
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>>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> >>
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
>
> __________________________________
>
>
>
> prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak kierownik katedry MINDS
> <https://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>, Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
>
> członek korespondent Polskiej Akademii Nauk <https://pan.pl/>
>
> faculty associate Berkman-Klein Center for Internet and Society
> <https://cyber.harvard.edu/>, Harvard University
> Ważniejsze książki: Collaborative Society
> <https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/collaborative-society> (2020, MIT Press,
> z A. Przegalińską), Thick Big Data
> <https://global.oup.com/academic/product/thick-big-data-9780198839705?cc=gb&lang=en>
> (2020,
> Oxford University Press), Common Knowledge?
> <https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=24010> (2014, Stanford University
> Press)
> *Ostatnie artykuły:*
>
> - Jędrzej Chrzanowski, Julia Sołek, Dariusz Jemielniak, Wojciech
> Fendler (2021) Assessing Public Interest Based on Wikipedia’s Most
> Visited Medical Articles During the SARS-CoV-2 Outbreak
> <https://www.jmir.org/2021/4/e26331/>, *Journal of Medical Internet
> Research*, 23(4)::e26331
> - Natalia Banasik-Jemielniak, Dariusz Jemielniak, Wojciech Pędzich
> (2021) Intercessory Rote Prayer, Life Longevity and the Mortality of
> Roman Catholic Bishops: An Exploratory Study
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10943-021-01214-9>, *Journal
> of Religion and Health*, doi.org/10.1007/s10943-021-01214-9
> - Natalia Banasik-Jemielniak, Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski
> (2021) Psychology and Wikipedia: Measuring Psychology Journals’
> Impact by Wikipedia Citations
>
> <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Psychology-and-Wikipedia-measuring-psychology-journals-impact-by-Wikipedia-citations.pdf>
> , *Social Science Computer Review, *doi.org/10.1177/0894439321993836
> - Agata Stasik, Dariusz Jemielniak (2021) Public involvement in risk
> governance in the internet era: impact of new rules of building trust and
> credibility
>
> <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Public-involvement-in-risk-governance-in-the-internet-era-impact-of-new-rules-of-building-trust-and-credibility.pdf>,
> Journal of Risk Research, doi.org/10.1080/13669877.2020.1864008
>
> _______________________________________________
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> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
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