> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a > project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not > so compelling for them.
How is Simple English Wikipedia not compelling for kids? Define “not compelling.” > Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles ! Oh, okay, so it’s going to be mostly out of whole cloth, not entirely. I’m not sure how many articles English Wikipedia has, but I know it’s in the millions. > They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki encyclopedia > for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to discover” I believe I’ve stated more or less stated that you can’t use our momentum since we need for the projects we have. > I took a look at Vikidia, thought I could do something for them, signed up > with an account, read what I could find of the guidance, and created an > article on Underwater diving, following the rules as I understood them, using > properly attributed CC-by-sa content from Simple English Wikipedia as a basic > framework, and was busy expanding it when it was deleted without discussion > by user Ajeje_Brazorf with the edit summary (Please don't copy from simple > wikipedia}, and no explanation why not. If I had done that on English > Wikipedia I would risk losing my admin bit. If that is how new users are > routinely treated there that encyclopedia is doomed. I will not be back to > waste my time there. On top of that, it would seem that you were able to sign up easily without verifying your age; both verifying age and not can be problematic. Verifying age makes things safer in terms of everyone knowing that if someone says they’re a kid, they’re a kid, and if they’re an adult, they’re an adult. Part of online grooming and police sting operations is people saying “I’m a kid, let’s meet offline." It can be problematic due to reasons of privacy. It’s not like you want everyone knowing the age of a child who’s online. That can mostly but entirely alleviated by only having the administration know everyones’ birthdate, and forcing admins to have strict account security. From, I dream of horses She/her > On Jun 24, 2022, at 5:09 AM, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> > wrote: > > I took a look at Vikidia, thought I could do something for them, signed up > with an account, read what I could find of the guidance, and created an > article on Underwater diving, following the rules as I understood them, using > properly attributed CC-by-sa content from Simple English Wikipedia as a basic > framework, and was busy expanding it when it was deleted without discussion > by user Ajeje_Brazorf with the edit summary (Please don't copy from simple > wikipedia}, and no explanation why not. If I had done that on English > Wikipedia I would risk losing my admin bit. If that is how new users are > routinely treated there that encyclopedia is doomed. I will not be back to > waste my time there. Cheers, Peter > <> > From: Mathias Damour [mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr > <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>] > Sent: 24 June 2022 00:00 > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia > > Ok, I did read your message too fast... I nevertheless know Simple English > Wikipedia. > > I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a > project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not > so compelling for them. > > > The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore > > more complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let > > languish in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole > > cloth. > > Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles ! > https://en.vikidia.org <https://en.vikidia.org/> > Unfortunately, the developpment of the wikis for children is very uneven, and > it seems hard to overcome the delay when they were launched later one than > another or missed their launch. For exemple I know about two or three unlucky > attempts in german before Klexikon* (and I beleive German had or has a very > good potential for such a project - demography and cultural ground favourable > to children participation and their freedom of information). Yet it was in > Dutch that Wikikids was launched early and is now quite big and active. > > They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki encyclopedia > for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to > discover" as just said Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga, but somewhat different from > the way they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be to let appear > the kid equivalent article in the "In other projects" section. > > Or maybe a very active work both in promotion and gathering a substantial set > of core articles (picking the best/most usefull, most viewed articles from > several kids wikis and Simple English Wikipedia, translating...) > > ************** > *- the original "Wikikids" proposal as a Wikimedia project was made by german > speaking wikipedians in early 2005 : > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757 > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757> but was > chilled down by the reactions on this list... > - Grundschulwiki was launched in december 2005, it still exists but is > restricted to works done in primary classroom and therefore is not much > developped : > https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history > > <https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history> > - a 2010 project ended as they were told to request a Simple German Wikipedia > and then denied to open it: > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht > > <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3 > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3> > Meanwhile Wikikids.nl <http://wikikids.nl/> was launched in March 2006 and > Vikidia in French in November 2006. > > > Envoyé: jeudi 23 juin 2022 à 21:15 > De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com > <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>> > À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>> > Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia > The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English > Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people > who aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few > “internet hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, > change en to simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very > general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias. > > Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English > Wikipedias’ activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; > I suspect kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on > Simple before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that > might require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think > Simple would certainly be a good place to start making Wikipedia more > accessible to 8-10 year olds. > > From, > I dream of horses > She/her > > > > > On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr > <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote: > > Hi, > > De: "WereSpielChequers" <werespielchequ...@gmail.com > <mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>> >> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very >> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents >> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be >> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in >> London. >> >> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the >> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content? > > There is one thing that is sure, that "one single childrens' encyclopaedia" > is a great step for children (and often teenagers and older people) than > having just Wikipedia available, and they love it. > > Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of > jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should > be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar > issues. Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for > those who wish to create childrens' versions. > > Yet there is not realistic hopes that the language of Wikipedia will change > to be easier. That wouldn't address the fact the articles on general subjects > are among the longest ones. > It sounds a bit weird that a content for 12 yo would not fit well for a 8 yo, > and then that Wikipedia could fit to children. The "reading level" of > articles on Vikidia is not perfectly homogenous, nor their developpment is. > They can be usefull for adult beginners on a subject just as a child can > prefer Wikipedia on a subject he's fond of and allready informed. > That was developped in this post (in english): > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Documentation_and_Vikidia > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Documentation_and_Vikidia> > > > De: "Ziko van Dijk" <zvand...@gmail.com> <mailto:zvand...@gmail.com>Ideally, > one would have >> * an encyclopedia for the very young, that parents read to them, >> * an encyclopedia for the 8 to 13 year olds, the target group for many >> of the existing kids' wikis, >> * an encyclopedia for juvelines, 14 to 18 years >> * an encyclopedia for everyone; this is what "regular Wikipedia" should be, >> * an encyclopedia for specialists; this is what "regular Wikipedia" >> actually develops into. >> And maybe encylopedias for people with specific challenges such as >> dyslexia. > > Most language don't have a single wiki encyclopedia for children or an > under-developped one. So I guess that's not realistic nor wise to wish such a > division in this work. So let's work on the allready allready launched ones ! > (Especially the one of the Vikidia family of course ;) see > https://www.vikidia.org/ <https://www.vikidia.org/> ) > > You actually do not need millions of articles for a good encyclopedia, some > thousand well written articles are enough. > > Vikidia in French and Wikikids in Dutch are by far the biggest wiki > encyclopedias for children, with about 35000 articles each. Yet young reader > on the Vikidia's guestbook still ask for "more content", which certainly mean > both enought developped articles (not just a few lines) and more subjects. So > yes, we need, if not millions of articles, at least several dozens of > thousands articles. > Of course, we see that (as everywhere) 20 % of the articles make more than 80 > % of the pageviews. But you can't really guess in advance which subject will > be in the top 20 %. > > De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" <galder...@hotmail.com > <mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> >> About Txikipedia: the age range is 8-12, but is more 10-12 than 8-9. The >> problem is that some of the writers are 8-9 years old, so their content is >> quite simple. >> >> (...) >> >> When I read French Vikidia I think that most of the contents are still too >> difficult for 8-9 years old students, but French education system maybe more >> advanced in some issues. Or it might be that Vikidia is centered in 8-13 >> years old, and 13 years old readers are way better reading and understanding >> texts. Klexikon seems very suitable, but it's logical, since it is written >> by educators, and not children or whoever wants to write. When we make >> courses with university students who will be the next primary school >> teachers, they write longer articles, but not necessarily better. The main >> goal there is to explain things as easily as possible, and not granting >> anything for known. We advise them to write shorter sentences, without >> dependencies and to explain all technical concepts inline, if possible. >> Also, they normally add boxes of "did you know?" so they can add a layer for >> curious children. > > Just as on Wikipedia, article don't have only one author. That makes them > better, more accessible and accurate. > > You can't just test an average child to write on such a wiki to tell if > children and teenagers are able to participate to a wiki encyclopedia for > several reasons : > the 1% rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule>) fully apply there (or less than 1%) > regular editors are few but very motivated, > they typically learn and are engaged for months and years, which is VERY > different than having been trained to edit for one or two hours. > A 12 yo with 2 years of participation, or a 15 yo with 3 years of experience > are often very valuables editors, either as writer of for maintenance and > community tasks. > > Adults as well have to learn to write on Vikidia, be they educators or not. > Just as it is well know that a journalist or a scientist, which are supposed > to be skilled is writing articles, often don't fit immediatly with the style > that is expected on Wikipedia. > > Mathias Damour > [[User:Astirmays]] > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l> > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/UHX6EVQUI233NCUHK2HE54HDOYOSSCUB/ > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/UHX6EVQUI233NCUHK2HE54HDOYOSSCUB/> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, > guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l> Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/KF426ALI77IUT6X7F6INLSAIBSD66Z2D/ > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/KF426ALI77IUT6X7F6INLSAIBSD66Z2D/> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > > Virus-free. www.avg.com > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l> > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/EA3EYC5GAEPNRIHXUHLQYEDXJILKWS5D/ > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/EA3EYC5GAEPNRIHXUHLQYEDXJILKWS5D/> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org>
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/UOPMB4DBZNFGAEMAJ5SYALK5QNKDMHWH/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
