> We do, however, love when teachers use the Simple English Wikipedia as an 
> educational tool (aka, supervised editing), though more often in user-space 
> than article-space. For example, see: 
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools 
> <https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools>

As a “regular” English WikiGnome, I also love it. I’ve often envisioned a high 
school after school class, with 14-21* year olds, a mixture of special ed, 
English Language Learners, and regular ed together editing English and Simple 
together.

*It’s not uncommon for developmentally disabled adults to stay in high school 
until 21 in America.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 4:02 PM, Rae Adimer via Wikimedia-l 
> <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> 
> The Simple English Wikipedia is geared towards writing simple content for 
> kids and others, but not specifically geared towards children as authors. 
> Both because the majority of basic topics that they'd want to write about are 
> already covered, and because only the content is simple, not the site's 
> administration, writing, or policy. Writing on the Simple English Wikipedia 
> involves simplifying complex topics, which can require a native or 
> professional understanding of the language.
> 
> We do, however, love when teachers use the Simple English Wikipedia as an 
> educational tool (aka, supervised editing), though more often in user-space 
> than article-space. For example, see: 
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools 
> <https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools>
> 
> Best,
> Rae
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> User:Vermont <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Vermont> on Wikimedia 
> projects
> they/them/theirs (why pronouns matter 
> <https://www.mypronouns.org/what-and-why>)
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:43 PM Neurodivergent Netizen 
> <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
>> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
>> so compelling for them.
> 
> I think the solution is to make the Simple Wikipedia more appealable to kids, 
> or at least more well-known to them and their parents, and not have a 
> separate Wikipedia. Primarily, we could probably do a better job of promoting 
> Simple internally, and it most likely wouldn’t hurt to double the SEO.
> 
>> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki 
>> encyclopedia for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it 
>> easier to discover"
> 
> You can’t use the momentum of Wikipedia to promote a non-WMF wiki, when we 
> have trouble getting momentum going on the WMF wikis that exist.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr 
>> <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>> 
>> Ok, I did read your message too fast... I nevertheless know Simple English 
>> Wikipedia.
>>  
>> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
>> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
>> so compelling for them.
>>  
>> > The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore 
>> > more complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let 
>> > languish in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole 
>> > cloth.
>>  
>> Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles !
>> https://en.vikidia.org <https://en.vikidia.org/>
>> Unfortunately, the developpment of the wikis for children is very uneven, 
>> and it seems hard to overcome the delay when they were launched later one 
>> than another or missed their launch. For exemple I know about two or three 
>> unlucky attempts in german before Klexikon* (and I beleive German had or has 
>> a very good potential for such a project - demography and cultural ground 
>> favourable to children participation and their freedom of information). Yet 
>> it was in Dutch that Wikikids was launched early and is now quite big and 
>> active.
>>  
>> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki 
>> encyclopedia for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it 
>> easier to discover" as just said Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga, but somewhat 
>> different from the way they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be 
>> to let appear the kid equivalent article in the "In other projects" section.
>>  
>> Or maybe a very active work both in promotion and gathering a substantial 
>> set of core articles (picking the best/most usefull, most viewed articles 
>> from several kids wikis and Simple English Wikipedia, translating...)
>>  
>> **************
>> *- the original "Wikikids" proposal as a Wikimedia project was made by 
>> german speaking wikipedians in early 2005 : 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html 
>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html>
>>  https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757 
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757> but was 
>> chilled down by the reactions on this list...
>> - Grundschulwiki was launched in december 2005, it still exists but is 
>> restricted to works done in primary classroom and therefore is not much 
>> developped : 
>> https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history
>>  
>> <https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history>
>> - a 2010 project ended as they were told to request a Simple German 
>> Wikipedia and then denied to open it: 
>> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht
>>  
>> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht>
>>  
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3
>>  
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3>
>> Meanwhile Wikikids.nl <http://wikikids.nl/> was launched in March 2006 and 
>> Vikidia in French in November 2006.
>>  
>>  
>> Envoyé: jeudi 23 juin 2022 à 21:15
>> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
>> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
>> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>> The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
>> Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people 
>> who aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few 
>> “internet hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, 
>> change en to simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two 
>> very general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.
>>  
>> Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English 
>> Wikipedias’ activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s 
>> changed; I suspect kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of 
>> writing on Simple before moving on to the so-called “real” English 
>> Wikipedia, but that might require some assistance that might not always 
>> exist offline. I think Simple would certainly be a good place to start 
>> making Wikipedia more accessible to 8-10 year olds.
>>  
>> From,
>> I dream of horses
>> She/her
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr 
>> <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>>  
>> Hi,
>>  
>>  De: "WereSpielChequers" <werespielchequ...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>>
>> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
>> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
>> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
>> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in 
>> London.
>> 
>> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
>> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
>> 
>> There is one thing that is sure, that "one single childrens' encyclopaedia" 
>> is a great step for children (and often teenagers and older people) than 
>> having just Wikipedia available, and they love it.
>>  
>> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use 
>> of jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia 
>> should be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have 
>> similar issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier 
>> for those who wish to create childrens' versions.
>> 
>> Yet there is not realistic hopes that the language of Wikipedia will change 
>> to be easier. That wouldn't address the fact the articles on general 
>> subjects are among the longest ones.
>> It sounds a bit weird that a content for 12 yo would not fit well for a 8 
>> yo, and then that Wikipedia could fit to children. The "reading level" of 
>> articles on Vikidia is not perfectly homogenous, nor their developpment is. 
>> They can be usefull for adult beginners on a subject just as a child can 
>> prefer Wikipedia on a subject he's fond of and allready informed.
>> That was developped in this post (in english):
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Documentation_and_Vikidia 
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Documentation_and_Vikidia>
>> 
>>  
>> De: "Ziko van Dijk" <zvand...@gmail.com> <mailto:zvand...@gmail.com>
>> Ideally, one would have
>> * an encyclopedia for the very young, that parents read to them,
>> * an encyclopedia for the 8 to 13 year olds, the target group for many
>> of the existing kids' wikis,
>> * an encyclopedia for juvelines, 14 to 18 years
>> * an encyclopedia for everyone; this is what "regular Wikipedia" should be,
>> * an encyclopedia for specialists; this is what "regular Wikipedia"
>> actually develops into.
>> And maybe encylopedias for people with specific challenges such as
>> dyslexia.
>> 
>> Most language don't have a single wiki encyclopedia for children or an 
>> under-developped one. So I guess that's not realistic nor wise to wish such 
>> a division in this work. So let's work on the allready allready launched 
>> ones ! (Especially the one of the Vikidia family of course ;) see 
>> https://www.vikidia.org/ <https://www.vikidia.org/> )
>>  
>> You actually do not need millions of articles for a good encyclopedia, some 
>> thousand well written articles are enough.
>> 
>> Vikidia in French and Wikikids in Dutch are by far the biggest wiki 
>> encyclopedias for children, with about 35000 articles each. Yet young reader 
>> on the Vikidia's guestbook still ask for "more content", which certainly 
>> mean both enought developped articles (not just a few lines) and more 
>> subjects. So yes, we need, if not millions of articles, at least several 
>> dozens of thousands articles.
>> Of course, we see that (as everywhere) 20 % of the articles make more than 
>> 80 % of the pageviews. But you can't really guess in advance which subject 
>> will be in the top 20 %.
>>  
>>  De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" <galder...@hotmail.com 
>> <mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>>
>> About Txikipedia: the age range is 8-12, but is more 10-12 than 8-9. The 
>> problem is that some of the writers are 8-9 years old, so their content is 
>> quite simple.
>> 
>> (...)
>> 
>> When I read French Vikidia I think that most of the contents are still too 
>> difficult for 8-9 years old students, but French education system maybe more 
>> advanced in some issues. Or it might be that Vikidia is centered in 8-13 
>> years old, and 13 years old readers are way better reading and understanding 
>> texts. Klexikon seems very suitable, but it's logical, since it is written 
>> by educators, and not children or whoever wants to write. When we make 
>> courses with university students who will be the next primary school 
>> teachers, they write longer articles, but not necessarily better. The main 
>> goal there is to explain things as easily as possible, and not granting 
>> anything for known. We advise them to write shorter sentences, without 
>> dependencies and to explain all technical concepts inline, if possible. 
>> Also, they normally add boxes of "did you know?" so they can add a layer for 
>> curious children.
>> 
>> Just as on Wikipedia, article don't have only one author. That makes them 
>> better, more accessible and accurate.
>> 
>> You can't just test an average child to write on such a wiki to tell if 
>> children and teenagers are able to participate to a wiki encyclopedia for 
>> several reasons :
>> the 1% rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule 
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule>) fully apply there (or less than 
>> 1%)
>> regular editors are few but very motivated,
>> they typically learn and are engaged for months and years, which is VERY 
>> different than having been trained to edit for one or two hours.
>> A 12 yo with 2 years of participation, or a 15 yo with 3 years of experience 
>> are often very valuables editors, either as writer of for maintenance and 
>> community tasks.
>> 
>> Adults as well have to learn to write on Vikidia, be they educators or not. 
>> Just as it is well know that a journalist or a scientist, which are supposed 
>> to be skilled is writing articles, often don't fit immediatly with the style 
>> that is expected on Wikipedia.
>> 
>> Mathias Damour
>> [[User:Astirmays]]
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