Hoi Gerard, Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries. But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...). I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development. In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there. An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments. This is not some Esperanto-type of language. Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators, and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language worthy of being used in mainstream media and education. In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style. Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators. A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of time to get the code. So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through. There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries, government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs). I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation, they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project. Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send the request and the documentation? Thanks a lot. Best regards, Moubarik Belkasim On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>wrote: > Hoi, > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16 > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language. > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it > being a constructed language quite a bit. > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for > this. > Thanks, > Gerard > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all, > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I > wanted > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber* > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and > > ISO > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3 > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5. > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a > language > > group". > > > > The fact is: it is both. > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language". > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber > language > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution > and > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects). > > > > So my questions are: > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project > > and approve it? > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"? > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own > ISO > > 639-3 language code. > > > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber > language > > on Facebook and elsewhere. > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber > > project on a regular basis. > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and > the > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco. > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish > Wikipedia > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and > > identically available in two alphabets. > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project: > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard > pan-Berber > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic > > institutes): > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics > > terminology. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Moubarik Belkasim > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
