Hoi,
When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
situation).
thanks,
Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hoi Gerard,
>
> Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
>
> Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> North African and Saharan countries.
>
> But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> Mali...).
>
> I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
> Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
> development.
>
> In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
> from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
> Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.
>
> An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
> created by the governments.
>
> This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
>
> Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
> and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
> which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
> worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
>
> In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and
> variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
>
> Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the
> obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And
> those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
>
> A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all
> this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of
> time to get the code.
>
> So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
>
> There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries,
> government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And
> there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting
> a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> programs).
>
> I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation,
> they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
> Wp/ber project.
>
> Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send
> the request and the documentation?
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Moubarik Belkasim
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
> > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in
> > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume
> > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> >
> > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not
> > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> >
> > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
> are
> > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically
> > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
> is
> > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
> > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> >
> > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for
> > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for
> > this.
> > Thanks,
> > Gerard
> >
> >
> > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> > wanted
> > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> > >
> > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
> and
> > > ISO
> > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
> 639-3
> > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> > language
> > > group".
> > >
> > > The fact is: it is both.
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
> > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
> have
> > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> > >
> > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> > language
> > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution
> > and
> > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
> > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> considering
> > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> > >
> > > So my questions are:
> > >
> > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> project
> > > and approve it?
> > >
> > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> > >
> > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
> Arabic
> > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects
> > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own
> > ISO
> > > 639-3 language code.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> > language
> > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> > >
> > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> > > project on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> > >
> > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and
> > the
> > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> > >
> > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> > Wikipedia
> > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
> > > identically available in two alphabets.
> > >
> > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> > >
> > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> > >
> > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> > pan-Berber
> > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > > institutes):
> > >
> > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> > >
> > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > > terminology.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
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