Hoi,
When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward,
we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This
means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it
in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <[email protected]> wrote:
> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
>
> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
> addresses this
> issue in its entirety.
>
> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
>
> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
> years.
>
> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
> participate.
>
> Cordially.
>
> 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
>
> > Hoi,
> > When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
> >
> > The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
> material
> > will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> > Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> > ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> > important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
> > documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
> >
> > As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
> likely
> > not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
> > situation).
> > thanks,
> > Gerard
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi Gerard,
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
> > >
> > > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> > > North African and Saharan countries.
> > >
> > > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> > > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> > > Mali...).
> > >
> > > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
> all
> > > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
> > > development.
> > >
> > > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
> > > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
> > > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
> > there.
> > >
> > > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
> > > created by the governments.
> > >
> > > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
> > >
> > > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
> educators,
> > > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes,
> in
> > > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
> language
> > > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
> > >
> > > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> > > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
> > and
> > > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
> > >
> > > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
> > the
> > > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy.
> And
> > > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
> > >
> > > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
> > all
> > > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot
> of
> > > time to get the code.
> > >
> > > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
> through.
> > >
> > > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
> dictionaries,
> > > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> > > standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
> > And
> > > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
> > broadcasting
> > > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> > > programs).
> > >
> > > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
> > documentation,
> > > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
> > > Wp/ber project.
> > >
> > > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
> > send
> > > the request and the documentation?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > > <[email protected]>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
> language
> > > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
> > in
> > > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
> > subsume
> > > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> > > >
> > > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
> > not
> > > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> > > >
> > > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
> merits
> > > are
> > > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
> > typically
> > > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> > > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
> language
> > > is
> > > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of
> it
> > > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> > > >
> > > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
> > for
> > > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
> > for
> > > > this.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Gerard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> > > > wanted
> > > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> > > > >
> > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
> 639-2
> > > and
> > > > > ISO
> > > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
> > > 639-3
> > > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> > > > language
> > > > > group".
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is: it is both.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
> > the
> > > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
> Wp/rif,
> > > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
> they
> > > have
> > > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> > > > >
> > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> > > > language
> > > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
> > constitution
> > > > and
> > > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
> > is
> > > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> > > considering
> > > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> > > > >
> > > > > So my questions are:
> > > > >
> > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> > > project
> > > > > and approve it?
> > > > >
> > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
> > > Arabic
> > > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
> > dialects
> > > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
> > own
> > > > ISO
> > > > > 639-3 language code.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> > > > language
> > > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
> Wp/ber
> > > > > project on a regular basis.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> > > > >
> > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically
> and
> > > > > identically available in two alphabets.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> > > > >
> > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> > > > pan-Berber
> > > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > > > > institutes):
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > > > > terminology.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > > > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
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