Hoi,
When the source text is always saved in the Latin script, casing can be
correctly applied to a text. Only when the text is originally in the
Tifinach script there may be issues.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 15 December 2011 20:35, M. Williamson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given
> that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is
> willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done
> on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.
>
> 2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>:
> > Hoi,
> > When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight
> forward,
> > we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible.
> This
> > means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save
> it
> > in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
> >>
> >> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
> >> addresses this
> >> issue in its entirety.
> >>
> >> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
> >> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
> >> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
> >>
> >> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of
> >> the
> >> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone
> >> the
> >> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
> >> years.
> >>
> >> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence
> >> of
> >> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
> >> participate.
> >>
> >> Cordially.
> >>
> >> 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
> >>
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language
> committee.
> >> >
> >> > The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
> >> material
> >> > will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> >> > Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> >> > ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> >> > important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have
> >> > sufficient
> >> > documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
> >> >
> >> > As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
> >> likely
> >> > not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either
> or
> >> > situation).
> >> > thanks,
> >> > Gerard
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hoi Gerard,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across
> 10
> >> > > North African and Saharan countries.
> >> > >
> >> > > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> >> > > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya,
> Niger,
> >> > > Mali...).
> >> > >
> >> > > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
> >> all
> >> > > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation
> >> > > and
> >> > > development.
> >> > >
> >> > > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber
> >> > > come
> >> > > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in
> >> > > the
> >> > > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
> >> > there.
> >> > >
> >> > > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not
> >> > > being
> >> > > created by the governments.
> >> > >
> >> > > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
> >> > >
> >> > > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
> >> educators,
> >> > > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and
> institutes,
> >> in
> >> > > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
> >> language
> >> > > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
> >> > >
> >> > > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> >> > > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal
> synonyms
> >> > and
> >> > > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
> >> > >
> >> > > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language
> is
> >> > the
> >> > > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and
> bureaucracy.
> >> And
> >> > > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
> >> > >
> >> > > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL
> about
> >> > all
> >> > > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a
> lot
> >> of
> >> > > time to get the code.
> >> > >
> >> > > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
> >> through.
> >> > >
> >> > > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
> >> dictionaries,
> >> > > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> >> > > standard Berber, recently published children's stories,
> manuals...etc.
> >> > And
> >> > > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
> >> > broadcasting
> >> > > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> >> > > programs).
> >> > >
> >> > > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
> >> > documentation,
> >> > > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of
> the
> >> > > Wp/ber project.
> >> > >
> >> > > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should
> I
> >> > send
> >> > > the request and the documentation?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > >
> >> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> >> > > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hoi,
> >> > > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
> >> language
> >> > > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only
> >> > > > spoken
> >> > in
> >> > > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
> >> > subsume
> >> > > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> >> > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it
> does
> >> > not
> >> > > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
> >> merits
> >> > > are
> >> > > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
> >> > typically
> >> > > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> >> > > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
> >> language
> >> > > is
> >> > > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue
> of
> >> it
> >> > > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language
> code
> >> > for
> >> > > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental
> support
> >> > for
> >> > > > this.
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Gerard
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation.
> And
> >> > > > > I
> >> > > > wanted
> >> > > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
> >> 639-2
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > ISO
> >> > > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an
> >> > > > > ISO
> >> > > 639-3
> >> > > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but
> is a
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > group".
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The fact is: it is both.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias
> >> > > > > for
> >> > the
> >> > > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
> >> Wp/rif,
> >> > > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
> >> they
> >> > > have
> >> > > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the
> Berber
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
> >> > constitution
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution,
> >> > > > > and
> >> > is
> >> > > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> >> > > considering
> >> > > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of
> languages/dialects).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > So my questions are:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> >> > > project
> >> > > > > and approve it?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a
> standard
> >> > > Arabic
> >> > > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on
> the
> >> > > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
> >> > dialects
> >> > > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with
> >> > > > > its
> >> > own
> >> > > > ISO
> >> > > > > 639-3 language code.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified
> Berber
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
> >> Wp/ber
> >> > > > > project on a regular basis.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in
> Algeria
> >> > and
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> >> > > > Wikipedia
> >> > > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is
> automatically
> >> and
> >> > > > > identically available in two alphabets.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> >> > > > pan-Berber
> >> > > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French
> >> > > > > linguistic
> >> > > > > institutes):
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of
> >> > > > > linguistics
> >> > > > > terminology.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best regards,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Moubarik Belkasim
> >> > > > > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
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>
> --
> skype: node.ue
>
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