Joe,
        I agree with you there and for many people that would be just fine, but 
the
average consumer is going to expect these wi-fi muni networks to perform
like DSL and Cable broadband does. The municipalities are expecting the same
thing. You and I know they will never be able to achieve this.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Laura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 2:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


So to sum it up IMO physics and limited spectrum makes a muni system
impossible to get the coverage they expect. Dont get me wrong, ups just
dropped off a mag mount friday to me that I am installing on the van
tomorrow. Even if I have to drive 3 blocks or so to connect and pull mail or
peek at my intermapper will be a plus. Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


> HP likes to design these Tropos networks by never having more than 2 hops
> before it gets put on some sort of backhaul. This in theory works well but
> in reality, you still run out of 2.4 GHz channels to place the access
nodes
> on. Remember each radio/mesh unit is at the same height as every other one
> thus firing their signal directly in to the antenna of all neighboring
> nodes. The users may not see the noise but node to node traffic certainly
> hears it. When the mesh radio is deaf because of noise, the network just
> plain fails to work. End of story. Mesh will simply not work on a loaded
> residential user based system without a lot more spectrum. People are
trying
> to fight the laws of physics. Ask any ham radio guy about this. When they
> originally built packet radio networks back in the early 90's, they found
> you needed separate channels to make it work (and that was only 1200
baud).
> San Francisco, Philly and any other muni network are going to fail based
on
> this problem. The idea and premise of a muni network is solid based on the
> points Matt Larsen brought up but as Jack and others have stated, they
have
> been sold on all of the positive benefits but never get told the
> limitations. The typical IT mentality is that they can throw more money at
> the problem to increase capacity. This is simply not true based on the
> limited number of useable channels. Sad thing is there will be a lot of
> taxpayer money wasted to prove this point.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes
>
>
> Dawn,
>
> Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info.
>
> Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very,
> very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so
> after 2 or 3 hops, all the throughput capability is gone not to mention
> that the interference level from having all the access and backhaul
> packets colliding on 2.4 GHz (along with any WISP and other 2.4 GHz
> network packets) will slow all the networks (muni and WISP) down
> further. I hate to "finger" anyone but Tropos' stubborn refusal or
> inability (anyone at Tropos listening???) to produce a 2-band mesh node
> is going to doom them to failure along with any big city that deploys
> their nodes without an extremely efficient point-to-multipoint backbone
> design on 5 GHz.
>
> jack
>
>
> Dawn DiPietro wrote:
>
> > http://www.peplink.com/060306.php
> >
> > Date: March 7, 2006*
> > PePLink announces as the official Citywide Wireless CPE provider for
> > City of St. Cloud in Florida  *
> >
> > *Hong Kong, Mar 7, 2006 - *PePLink, a leader in citywide WiFi wireless
> > broadband devices today announced the City of St. Cloud, FL, a suburb of
> > Orlando, has chosen PePLink to be the official wireless CPE provider for
> > the Cyber Spot, the City's 100% free citywide high-speed wireless
> > Internet service.
> >
> > With a reliable, secure, ease of use wireless CPE - PePLink Surf, every
> > citizen or business in the city of St. Cloud can connect to the citywide
> > wireless network at a high speed. The CPE greatly enhances the
> > throughput and reliability of both up and down link compared with a
> > wireless-enabled computer desktop or notebook computer.
> >
> > The simple true plug and play nature of the PePLink Surf helps the
> > citizens in St. Cloud to bring the wireless signal indoors with ease. At
> > the same time, the PePLink Surf units can be remotely managed, monitored
> > and provisioned by PePLink's carrier-grade management and reporting
> > solution, PCMS (or PePLink Centralized Management System). This can
> > ensure a scalable and rapid rollout of the wireless systems within a
> > short period of time. This eliminates an onsite installation charge.
> >
> > "Being chosen by City of St. Cloud has further endorsed our capability
> > to offer reliable wireless solutions to municipal wireless networks
> > built with mesh network technology," said Alex Chan, Managing Director
> > of PePLink. "PePLink Surf together with PCMS is the complete solution
> > specifically designed for today's citywide wireless networks."
> >
> > PePLink Surf series consists of Surf 200BG and Surf 400BG. For more
> > information on PePLink Surf series, please visit http://www.peplink.com
> > <http://www.peplink.com/>.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
> >
> >> roflol
> >>
> >> The city is selling "signal boosters" (I read that as amps) to anyone
> >> that wants them for $170?
> >>
> >> Oh man, this deployment is gonna come CRASHING down.  Hard.
> >>
> >> It's really too bad these people are too ignorant, stubborn or just
> >> plain stupid to call any of us in to help.
> >>
> >> sigh
> >>
> >> Marlon
> >> (509) 982-2181                                   Equipment sales
> >> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
> >> 42846865 (icq)                                    And I run my own
wisp!
> >> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> >> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> >> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:07 AM
> >> Subject: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes
> >>
> >>
> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060424/ap_on_hi_te/muni_wi_fi_hiccups
> >>>
> >>> I am not a fan of muni wireless.
> >>>
> >>> George
> >>> --
> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>
> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> >>>
> >>
> >
> > ---
> > ---
> >
>
> --
> Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
> Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
> Our next WISP Workshops are April 12-13 and April 26-27
> Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com
>
>
>
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