Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: > For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and > I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its > comming from myself. > Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think > Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for > all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user > PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS > syncing? NOT! > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Rohrbacher" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links > > >> Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use >> Canopy? >> >> Brian >> >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >> >>> Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used >>> 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my >>> business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where >>> we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet >>> loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these >>> situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, >>> because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts >>> transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta >>> ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used >>> reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and >>> learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when >>> under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I >>> started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only >>> a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something >>> else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), >>> they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly >>> fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime >>> for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and >>> VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my >>> reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up >>> cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means >>> there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make >>> the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give >>> stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the >>> failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown >>> away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. >>> >>> What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the >>> antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big >>> antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. >>> >>> Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 >>> Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext >>> any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and >>> EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ >>> on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we >>> still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is >>> frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 >>> markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a >>> couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed >>> their order with someone else. >>> >>> What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango >>> APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that >>> can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer >>> packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate >>> my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so >>> I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the >>> roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if >>> Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. >>> >>> I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around >>> its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing >>> sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango >>> does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable >>> ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many >>> pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never >>> released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was >>> missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. >>> >>> The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) >>> Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. >>> I can't count how much money I burned just waiting. I don't want to >>> wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep >>> waiting. I want it now. I need it now. This is a time to market >>> business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting. >>> >>> So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product >>> that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason >>> to wait. >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links >>> >>> >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three >>>> $500/mo subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) >>>> that would have allowed you the external antenna that was so >>>> critical for these links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have >>>> them paid for in less than two months? >>>> >>>> Travis >>>> Microserv >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion. >>>>> However, his post does leave out technical detail on why the >>>>> equipment had helped, which may be misleading to a reader. >>>>> I have found great success with Trango for many reasons, and will >>>>> continue to in comming years, and the fact that Alvarion shines in >>>>> some areas now, does not conclude that Trango is not a good >>>>> platform for WISPs, as Trango products still offers one of the >>>>> best value propositions on the market today. There are many >>>>> factors to influence what choice is best for you and when. >>>>> >>>>> As far as Alvarion, they are definately back in the game as a >>>>> leader in reliabilty for WISPs. >>>>> We also have been very please with our live testing results of >>>>> their product. >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to point out that Alvarion not only provides top >>>>> engineering behind their product (so you don;t have to be one your >>>>> self), but also empowers the WISP to take advantage of their own >>>>> engineering capabilties. In other words they give the engineering >>>>> control back to the WISP. All Alvarion radio products are >>>>> connectorized, allowing seperate antennas. Every radio product >>>>> shows Signal-to-Nosie ratios in real time while live. What this >>>>> allows is for a WISP operator to accurately predict in advance of >>>>> a truck roll, what a problem is, and will be required to fix it. >>>>> Although it takes a truck roll, the WISP is empowered to make what >>>>> ever antenna changes are necessary to fix such link, in the >>>>> shortest amount of time, because no Radio reconfigurations or >>>>> internal documentations are needed, just the replacement of >>>>> desired antenna. I'm an engineer and don;t want to be limited. And >>>>> when their is engineering over my head, their is a solid >>>>> engineering staff at Alvarion that is available. >>>>> >>>>> What is a fact, is that I had three > $500 ARPU new subs, in the >>>>> last two weeks, that were not successfully installed, because they >>>>> were teatering right on the edge of the readios capabilty to get >>>>> around environmental conditions that were causing minor packet >>>>> loss. $500 ARPU subs don't keep service even with MINOR packet >>>>> loss. I attempted to get these with our Trango product line, >>>>> because that is what is instaleld at the CellSite, taking the >>>>> spectrum, with other live clients on the sectors. As a result, I >>>>> lost all three, The reason is that Wireless scares prospects, and >>>>> every little bit of confidence that we could pull out of them was >>>>> required to get the sale in the first place, and the first hint of >>>>> difficulty, they get scared and pull the plug, before it starts. >>>>> They ask themselves, "What If?". Had I had an external antenna >>>>> option, and not been limited, I would be $1500 a month richer this >>>>> week. >>>>> >>>>> What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to >>>>> change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that >>>>> the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if >>>>> every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually >>>>> others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is >>>>> no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space >>>>> and say, "I'm here first", "go find another channel to play on". >>>>> And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, >>>>> you over power the interference, but the important point is, you >>>>> reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the >>>>> beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious >>>>> it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals >>>>> interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. >>>>> >>>>> The point I'm making is that Alvarion "gets it", when providing >>>>> ext antenna options, and why its necessary for. >>>>> >>>>> Until Trango puts out an external connector SU, with strong >>>>> reliable ARQ feature (required for TDD in noisy environments), >>>>> they are at a severe disadvantage in PtMP to competitor vendors. >>>>> Because without it, we just loose to many High ARPU prospects. >>>>> The problem that we have with Trango right now, is they are making >>>>> great accomplishments in their technology for low ARPU markets, >>>>> but they have forgotten about taking care of the need of the High >>>>> ARPU clients in PtMP in recent years. We don't want minimum >>>>> engineering for our high ARPU clients, they don't want the risk, >>>>> and neither do we. I am still a big supporter of Trango's value, I >>>>> just have recognized that this hole MUST be filled by them soon, >>>>> for their product to stay a viable option. >>>>> >>>>> Alvarion on the other hand has managed to solve the current day >>>>> problems. But this comes at a price, and the step left for the >>>>> provider, is to run the numbers to see if it all works >>>>> financially. Alvarion's numbers don't work everywhere, but after >>>>> the fact, we are finding that they actually would have worked in >>>>> more places than we originally thought. >>>>> >>>>> Now in fairness, I have made some cross comparison between PtMP >>>>> and PTP products. The Trango Atlas has an external antenna option >>>>> also if doing PTP. >>>>> >>>>> Tom DeReggi >>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mario Pommier" >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:36 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> John, >>>>>> Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the >>>>>> manufacturer/vendor you used. >>>>>> Regarding the radios you're using now. >>>>>> Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never >>>>>> switched out. >>>>>> It's hard to try other technologies that appear less >>>>>> expensive, when the one you already have proves itself year after >>>>>> year after year. And when you can talk to really good >>>>>> engineering support. >>>>>> OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on >>>>>> residential markets except where we don't have to compete with >>>>>> $30/mo dsl. But I know some folks, even on this list, who >>>>>> somehow have done that. >>>>>> But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or >>>>>> 900 to VL has had the same response from our customers that you >>>>>> describe "wow, that is fast". Mind you, these customers are >>>>>> still limited on our bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps >>>>>> symmetrical speeds. But the VL network just seems to fly >>>>>> compared to the previous, 4 or more year old technologies now. >>>>>> It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like >>>>>> you give a report like this one: I was thinking about using >>>>>> Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not >>>>>> 5 years from today. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mario >>>>>> >>>>>> John Scrivner wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and >>>>>>> reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time >>>>>>> back. We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois >>>>>>> which until recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We >>>>>>> had countless short outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth >>>>>>> crunches, etc. The Trangos used to work just fine. In the last >>>>>>> year or so the Trango links have become a big problem for us. We >>>>>>> tried several things to fix these problems but the Trangos were >>>>>>> simply being pushed to do more than they were designed to do. >>>>>>> The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably >>>>>>> serve the towers simply was too much for these radios and they >>>>>>> were buckling under the strain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could >>>>>>> probably find a good place for their equipment in our network >>>>>>> someday. Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had >>>>>>> always been that we either needed something they did not offer >>>>>>> at the time needed ( as was the case when we selected Trango for >>>>>>> multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in the day) or that they were >>>>>>> too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place in our network. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product >>>>>>> seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of >>>>>>> 50,000 packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per >>>>>>> second capacity with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When >>>>>>> I asked about the product I was directed to a guy named Mike >>>>>>> Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF engineer and sells >>>>>>> Alvarion VL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look >>>>>>> over the issues we were having and help us find ways of >>>>>>> correcting it. He never charged us a dime for what I consider to >>>>>>> be thousands of dollars worth of support and training. Mike >>>>>>> Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to help us build a better >>>>>>> WISP network than any vendor ever has since the day I became a >>>>>>> WISP. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our >>>>>>> network which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow >>>>>>> down that traffic. The combination of this box and the new more >>>>>>> robust Alvarion VL backhaul has led customers to remark, "It's >>>>>>> like the difference between night and day". We have zero >>>>>>> downtime on our backhaul now. We were getting countless reports >>>>>>> of downtime from our network monitoring system before. Now it >>>>>>> just works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on >>>>>>> my network. If you are having problems with your network then >>>>>>> you need to at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the >>>>>>> last three months or so we have migrated about 40% of our >>>>>>> backhaul links over to Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on >>>>>>> those most troubled links have vanished. Throughput has tripled. >>>>>>> People have gone from screaming and yelling to sending their >>>>>>> friends to us to hookup. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you >>>>>>> will find a few different systems that will give comparable >>>>>>> umbers to what we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not >>>>>>> see in those numbers is the quality and the reliability of the >>>>>>> system. I have always been a tinkerer and I will continue to >>>>>>> tinker. What I believe though is that there is something to be >>>>>>> said for buying a high-quality, engineered system and that is >>>>>>> what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower locations >>>>>>> and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test >>>>>>> subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for >>>>>>> those links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly >>>>>>> build a system as reliable as a company who has spent millions >>>>>>> of dollars and hired countless designers to research and build a >>>>>>> better data radio. I am certainly not ashamed to admit it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the record, I publicly announced that I would report these >>>>>>> findings after I bought some Alvarion VL some time back. This >>>>>>> was prior to Alvarion joining WISPA as a vendor. While my report >>>>>>> here is almost like reading an Alvarion advertisement I can tell >>>>>>> you that it is not. I have not been paid to give this shining >>>>>>> recommendation and Alvarion has earned my personal support >>>>>>> outside of my relationship with them through WISPA. Thank you, >>>>>>> Alvarion, for giving me a better network. >>>>>>> Scriv >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ **************************************************************************** ******** This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(191). **************************************************************************** ******** **************************************************************************** ******** This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(43). **************************************************************************** ******** -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
