So like I suggested before simply put another $40 Atheros radio in there
tuned to 5.3GHz.  This has been mentioned before by more than just me.

How is that a simple CM9 (Atheros radio) is capable of 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz
with little or no degradation?  I think your R&D folks are not being as
forthcoming with you as they should.

BTW, stop trying to play the victim here Patrick.  It's very unbecoming of
you.  These are basic straightforward suggestions that have been proven in
competing products.  This discussion will only improve your product
awareness and hopefully the suggestions you cultivate here will trickle up
to your R&D team and be implemented.

So far we've made progress on the RSSI topic and the dual polarity item.
Don't expect us to give up until we get dual band as well.  <grin>

Best,

Brad




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

There are arguments against dual band support, as we have discussed
before, though you ridicule our sincere reasoning and call it BS (which
is why I am cautious about discussing these things with you in public).

As I said to you, our R&D folks tell me that RF components that span a
broad frequency range have poorer performance than those designed for
more narrow frequency ranges. I don't have a Ph.D in EE or other science
disciplines, so I'm not going to argue with them. And as I have further
explained, that poorer edge performance may or may not be worth giving
up to get the benefit of dual band. That part is an economic question,
not a technical one.

At this point, our company has made the decision that the loss in
performance is not worth the benefits. And yes, our R&D DO tend to be RF
purists (another thing you ridicule). That reality has its good and bad
points.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Agreed, VL does have more niche features and some of those can be the
sole
reason VL makes the cut and other products do not.  As you know VLAN
support
was the key feature in this particular case, but simply placing a CPE
router
on site will also fill that need.

I'm a believer in the VL product, but there are currently a few too many
basic pitfalls with the product.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be posting
about the VL.  Let's face it this is some of the best exposure a
manufacturer can ask for: users expressing improvements they would like
to
see implemented.

The improvement requests here aren't without merit.  Dual polarity and
dual
band capability are good ideas.  There isn't any argument against it, so
why
not implement it?  I guarantee it will result in additional VL sales.

Trango has many features that VL does not currently offer in addition to
the
extremely important Dual Polarity ability:

(1)  Rx Threshold to maintain full payload capacity in noisy areas
(2)  Far fewer commands that require a reboot
(3)  Much faster reboot
(4)  Dual band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz in one product
(5)  RSSI reading local and remote side
(6)  Ability to locate noise at AU or SU without interrupting traffic

Considering Alvarion has a tech in the local area I wouldn't expect
anything
less than a "free" visit.  Scanning the numerous emails between all of
us on
this topic I'm unable to find the offer.  Could you forward me the
exchange
you are referring to?

Trango offered to fly a tech out to us from across the country for
"free".
Free is in quotations because I don't believe anything is free...you're
paying for it somewhere in this case by purchasing product. <grin>

There is more, but it's Sunday and I've got yet another 4 or 5yr old
birthday party to attend!

Best,


Brad



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Re dual polarity via software, I and others have always said it would be
nice. You've never heard me argue against it and you have heard me
acknowledge that this is Trango's key "Trango only" differentiator. But
we all understand that and have acknowledged it many times. Lots of
things are nice, some just have higher priority than others. For every 1
thing VL may not have relative to Trango, we can probably find 10 things
VL can do that Trango cannot, each of equal importance maybe to dual
polarity. The ability to do VoIP well would be such a thing. Those with
multipoint networks using Trango or Canopy are entirely stranded in
terms of being able to do VoIP to any reasonable scale. 

Come on Brad. I was personally involved in some of the threads where
I've seen my people (or me) attempt to answer every question you have
had. I know Keith's management has offered to send him out there
numerous times for free. I was pleased to be able to visit to understand
what your customer was wanting to do.
 
By the way, training does not have to be $1,000 a head, as you know. We
offer people to pay for the whole class than they can sell their own
seats for whatever they want. We actually have some customers that use
this as a profit center. Also, respectfully, isn't one's willingness to
get trained a good measure of one's seriousness? And what professional
training have you had for free that was wroth anything?

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:53 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Wow Patrick, I'm surprised of your answer.  I think I've made it
abundantly
clear over the years I'm "open source" when it comes to equipment and
choose
the best solution for the application at hand regardless of brand.

I've certainly been more a critique of Trango and many other products
than I
have been of Alvarion VL.  That can't be disputed.  I'm just surprised
you
have such thin skin regarding constructive criticism.

Regardless of what you believe, SNR is NOT the same thing as a RSSI
reading.
RSSI is pretty much what makes the world go 'round in the radio
industry.
Not sure why Alvarion continues to dig in their heals over such a simple
item that even your own techs agree should be provided.

Holy cow Patrick admits software DP "might be nice"!  This is a first
and
shows progress is achievable...baby steps Patrick, baby steps.  Now
let's
put the idea front & center with the Alvarion design team and as they
say
git 'er done!

I think you know as well as I do the size of the weather seal was an
oversight in design.  The idea that 1 or 2 mm larger in size will make
the
weather seal less effective is ridiculous.  You can do better that that.

Not sure what you mean about my customer chose VL etc, etc.  The end
user
client is ours...the last thing I want to do is have it fail.  The sale
was
for 2MB/2MB FDX and frankly the VL can't do that every day all day in
this
environment.  HDX, yes.

Accept training at $1000 a person?  No thanks.  Either a manufacturer
supports the product or not.  Are you saying we are not going to be
given
support until we pay up $1000 a head for a class?

Proficient in more than one brand?  I'm not even going to respond to
such a
silly assertion.

Alavarion Engineers have been given full access to this setup in
countless
emails running surveys etc, etc.  Not until v4.0 was installed was the
client even able to use the circuit.  That offer has always been open
for
Alvarion engineers to login and take a look for themselves.  BTW, I
believe
Jean was another tech I spoke with at length that was very knowledgeable
and
helpful.  Problem is the site is a very noisy site and a product that
doesn't work well with noise will not perform well there.  Without dual
polarity, Rx threshold and dual band abilities the VL will always
suffer.

You missing the point here Patrick.  I'm trying to get Alvarion to
improve
their product so we can BUY more of it.

Best,


Brad






-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G. villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Patrick,

Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and
its
achieving its link budget.

Altough we don't use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching
backhaul
options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the calcs
on
radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance to
implementation.  Snr won't help much there...

Gino

-----Original Message-----
    From: "Patrick Leary"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM
    To: "WISPA General List"<wireless@wispa.org>
    Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
      Brad,
    
    Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not sure why you
    consistently harp on us though since no one else has it either other
    than your longtime preferred vendor.
    
    I am not as convinced about your complaint about RSSI. Is it just
used
    to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters. But also, isn't
RSSI
    less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR since it is
only an
    indication of receive signal without discounting noise? SNR provides
a
    more accurate representation of wanted signal since it discounts for
    unwanted noise.
    
    Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one else remarks about
it
    and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In other words, it
works
    well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the potential for
water
    intrusion.
    
    Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling guy, I would agree.
But
    I am pleased to note that one is really running out of things to
harp
    about when one continually highlights this a major deficiency.
    
    So now that I have responded here to your public mail, will you
please
    admit that even if the VL came to life and saved your kid from a
flood
    you complain that it was not fast enough and that it ripped the
kid's
    clothes. I wish some day you'd accept that your customer chose VL
and
    you should take the opportunity to learn about it instead of still
    trying to make it fail so you can get them to switch to Trango. Even
the
    best radios will have room for improvement and every decent brand
should
    have something special that differentiates it. You work so hard to
find
    fault you miss opportunities to become proficient in more than one
    brand. So accept our invitations to allow engineer visits and accept
our
    invitations to be trained. Know what I mean?
    
    Patrick Leary
    AVP WISP Markets
    Alvarion, Inc.
    o: 650.314.2628
    c: 760.580.0080
    Vonage: 650.641.1243
    
    
    
    
     
     
 
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