----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
We've got a long way to go yet.
No, we have 3 weeks.
Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need.
But here are a few things so far.
You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry
standard to be compliant.
No, of course not. Can YOU do this on your own? I suspect not.
Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But
those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on
devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some
router or server work done now.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon
yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as
you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of
all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads.
Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts.
You don't need a TTP.
Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY
geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all
back
together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect
accuracy.
Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge
more than OPEC to help you out.
What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to
you.
Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party
something, be it software or hardware or services.
Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement.
But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-)
You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect.
You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date.
This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent
understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience,
and not even any theoretical education on how its done.
Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file.
Whatever that is.
You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow
*a*
standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you
follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the
standard.
In other words, if you don't follow a "standard" then you're totally
screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can
do
anything.
Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and
easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA.
We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed right
at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?!
CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable.
Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents,
brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just
dumping
it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes
Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it.
And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin
You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Riiiiight.
transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business
operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for
making
this a better country. No shame in that.
NOT AT ALL. It is NOT "reasonable" to expect the vast majority of the
operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering
to
the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the
incredibly
expensive TTP's. Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you as
hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have to
sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's
competition- which does not exist.
You don't have to be available 24/7/356. Didn't you read the FAQ? Didn't
you file your forms? You just have to tell them who to call, and if there's
no place to call 24/7 you have to tell them when they CAN likely reach you.
By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost
option
for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your
Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY! That's the whole problem in a
nutshell. The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast
majority
of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people
informally sharing something.
Grin. Again Mark, you are manufacturing a boogyman out of a shadow.
Average is AVERAGE. We all have routers, we all have servers, we all have
customers etc. That's average. Whether you have Cisco, Imagestream, MT or
like I used to do, run FreeBSD routers, won't make much difference.
networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more ability
to
understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like
broadcast storms etc.
I built my network right to begin with. I have no issues whatsoever with
broadcast storms or otherwise. I only have to deal with things like
virus
and malware infected clients.
Same thing. And guess what, the same choke points you use to either find or
shut them down, are the ones that you need for CALEA. Cool eh?
You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the stuffing
out
of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be
horribly expensive.
You still do not get it. IT IS WRONG for them to transfer law enforcement
duties to us, for their convenience. Dangit Marlon, it's just as if the
cops demanded the gas stations GIVE them all the gas their cars need, and
that the restaurants feed them for free and mechanics fix the cars for
free,
ISP's give them internet for free, telcos give them phones for free, blah,
blah, blah.
Mark, do you lock your door? Take the key out of your pickup at night? Did
you ever put up a fence?
Now you're just being silly. Arguing for the sake of arguing.
And darnit, I want to scare the stuffing out of EVERYONE so they'll stop
being passive fools and STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, instead of being wiped
out
like lemmings.
Who's being passive? Passive is sitting in a corner hoping that the roof
isn't falling in.
Mark, honestly, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Most people here
don't have a problem with stuff like CALEA. We have a problem with spectrum
auctions vs. unlicensed. We have a problem with the current certifications
rules as they're applied to us.
You want to do something Mark? Write up some letters that we can sigh onto.
Give us something to support. A general feeling of uneasyness isn't
something that most of us have time or patience for.
MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work
we'll
do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll
contract
out to people like Bearhill.
And who can afford a TTP? Maybe you can. I don't even collect a
paycheck. Where the hell do you think that money will come from?
Gads.
Have you completely forgotten what it was like to start up? Just hanging
on by your teeth, when you had to buy stuff in 1's and 2's and 5's
because
that's ALL THERE WAS in the bank and all there was going to be? You
never
had to ask people for 10 days or 30 days now and then on a bill? You
think
money just grows on trees and we're all swimming in the falling leaves?
I know exactly what it's like. Things aren't a panic every other day
anymore. But I still can't gut a $10,000 check and not wonder how high
it'll bounce.
Mark, what does it cost to use a TTP for an intercept? Have you checked
with our nice new vendor member? Bearhill. Have you shot Tim a note and
asked what the WISPA member pricing is? Do you have real DATA? Or do you
just have emotions running wild?
marlon
marlon
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
> Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official
> anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done
> with their activities.
> It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of
> compliance and costs.
>
>
> I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew
> some
> isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would
> assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp.
>
> --
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