I agree with what John is saying in most part. The reluctance to fully support 3.65Ghz may be the cost for some, I know it is me. It is hard to justify spending 3x to Nx for a 3.65Ghz AP or SM.
Another problem I have with 3.65Ghz is the NLOS problems. Where I operate we have hills, and lots of them with 60 - 80 foot trees. We mostly use 900Mhz here, and I would have loved to had some of the 700Mhz spectrum. Luckily, we are not having to compete with massive speeds where I am. The top-of-the-line DSL package here is 3 meg, 2 meg for cable. In the sparsly populated cities, we do some 2.4 and 5.8...but those cities are far and few in between. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I hope all of you will read this post. I have spent a long time writing it and I think it is very important for us to all think about the issues involved. How about if we tie the 3.65 GHz band to one technology with our wallets instead of making Uncle Sam do it with regulation? We will see which platforms dominate over the next 5 years in wireless broadband. We are going to see some movement away from 802.11 based systems as a platform for delivery of outdoor broadband in all bands in my opinion. I think we will see a move toward licensed WiMax and LTE systems used predominantly for wireless broadband delivery as the next few years progress. I have little doubt that other platforms will be put to use but innovation will not occur from multiple platform distractions away from the goal of building efficient, cost effective and unified systems for outdoor wireless broadband. Do you think mixing several unrelated technologies into he same band is a good idea? I believe that we need to be using ONE platform in 3.65 and we need to all support it. Fragmentation of support, vendors, operators, etc. does not help our collective efforts. We need to decide on a platform and all of us need to use it if we are ever going to make headway as a group. The rest of the world is building WiMax in 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz. I just cannot see why we have to reinvent the wheel here. I assure you that if we all built on this platform that we could get the regulations changed to allow for WiMax use across the entire 50 MHz of this band. With GPS sync and 6 non-overlapping channels we could certainly avoid interference and deliver quality wireless broadband in 3.65 GHz. How does our industry standardizing on a platform like WiMax in 3.65 GHz stifle innovation? I think it does the opposite. I think it provides focus and clarity and economies of scale for a platform designed to provide outdoor wireless broadband. It is our best shot at building interconnected networks with scale and an exit strategy for operators, many having been running wireless broadband networks for over a decade. We are not getting any younger and someday we need to have something that someone will want to buy. I have given much thought to this. I am sure some will doubt what I am saying but I feel very strongly that we need to be setting a standard and supporting it as a group. If we cannot mass our buying power collectively toward a common platform VERY soon then we will not have to worry about it much longer because deeper pockets will do it for us. By most all accounts Telecoms with DSL and CableCos with DOCSIS have flourished by choosing industry standards for their broadband platforms and using it. They all support these same standards. I remember the early days of cable modems when there were 50 proprietary standards. Innovation came when the cable companies and their vendors banded together and built the DOCSIS standard and they all agreed to support it. That is innovation, focus, and efficiency. Why can't we do the same thing and learn from others who have succeeded? How can we achieve economies of scale with several different incompatible systems? I think we better wise up in 3.65 before we end up with an inefficiently used band with little chance of reuse (no GPS sync in 802.11x). All of us need to choose a platform which is designed to provide outdoor broadband efficiently and effectively. WiMax was built to fill this need and we need to start supporting it or face diminishing returns as the billions of dollars from others globally build over us. It is time for us to wake up and smell the coffee. The change is in the air and you need to be aware of it. The rest of the world is building WiMax networks to deliver wireless broadband. How long do we need to wait to see that this is not a fad? This is not just another option. It is how wireless broadband is going to be delivered in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz bands globally. Indeed it is how it is being done already. We are just late to the party. Do you think several non-cooperative systems (some of which are not even designed for outdoor wireless) are better than choosing a good standard and all of us supporting it? I am not trying to start a holy war here or anything. I just want to know why many in this group seem to have a preference for 802.11 based systems over systems designed to work better in outdoor environments as we have seen with 802.16 and 802.22, or even other proprietary systems like Canopy for instance? What is the love affair with 802.11? I don't get it. It is not designed for this purpose and yet many here seem to prefer it to systems built from the ground up to do outdoor broadband wireless. What is so bad about picking a good standard and all of us trying to support it instead of having 50 different systems all acting as little islands of users and support? WISPs better get together and make use of this golden opportunity in 3.65 GHz. It is as close to a WISP band as we will likely ever get. If we mess this up then we will not get another chance. WISPs and WISPA are at a crossroads I think. It is time to stop playing with tinkertoys and get out some real tools and go to work. John Scrivner On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Harold Bledsoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, any frequency that is tied to > a particular standard by regulation will do nothing but stifle > innovation in that band. > > -Hal > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> > To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:14:48 -0500 > > I would like to see WiMax approved for the entire 50 MHz and do away > with the contention mechanism requirement for the upper 25 MHz as > required under the rules. I know this is a flip-flop of position from > our earlier position but frankly I see this as a god opportunity for > WISPs to move up to the next level of reliability and scale. Many > people are building in WiMax with success in the 3.5 to 3.8 GHz bands > across the world. If WiMax were the standard for the 3650 band across > 50 MHz then carriers could easily work together to band plan and move > away from interference. With GPS sync the bands can be reused multiple > times anyway. Sticking with one standard in this band just makes sense > for us. It can be a "WISP band" if we do this. Spanking more out of > 802.11 is old news and needs to be put to bed. It is time to use a > real platform for scalable and reliable outdoor wireless broadband. > WiMax is the path to this in 3.65 GHz. 802.22 will be the standard in > the TV whitespaces (hopefully). It is time for us to standardize and > use something better than repurposed WiFi. Scriv > > > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:15 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> The energy level for backoff CAN be adjusted. >> >> The FCC says that NEITHER is acceptable, and even though the atheros >> mechanism is just an "energy detection", it will not be allowed. This is >> what I gathered from an assortment of emails on the topic, some of >> which were from the FCC to someone wanting certification. >> >> >> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> <insert witty tagline here> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harold Bledsoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 4:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP >> >> >>> The RF energy detection mechanism of 802.11a is sort of based on >>> power level. If the preamble is detected and decoded, then the >>> mechanism is activated at -82dBm. Otherwise it requires a >>> relatively high energy level (-62dBm). >>> >>> Although I agree that even -62dBm seems "fair". It would be very >>> useful to know what part of the CCA mechanism of 802.11a does not >>> work for the FCC's contention requirement. If it is not the >>> detection mechanism, then perhaps it is the backoff mechanism? >>> >>> -Hal >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>> To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 01:23:31 -0700 >>> >>> That's nice, but in real life the FCC has simply gotten on a tear >>> and decided that NOTHING qualifies for what they want. >>> >>> I have no idea what the purpose of this rather odd bit of nonsense >>> is about, but when it declares that 802.11 "does not detect >>> dissimilar systems", then >>> nothing can EVER be made to work. After all, the whole "listen before >>> talk" >>> is AN RF ENERGY DETECTOR. If that doesn't work, nothing can. Or, only >>> that device or mechanism the person passing judgement wants to promote >>> will >>> "work". >>> >>> We would spectulate who has bought this favor from the FCC, but in >>> reality, it doesn't matter. I predict NO equipment will be >>> certified for the rest of >>> the spectrum and it will be auctioned for big bucks to some large entity. >>> We'll still be in the same boat 2 years from now, with statements about >>> "we're watching the development of <insert technology du jour here> with >>> interest". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> <insert witty tagline here> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:28 PM >>> Subject: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP >>> >>> >>>> Update from the FCC. This makes is very clear to me what the FCC is >>>> looking for, if there are any questions or comments feel free. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, Tony Morella >>>> Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider >>>> Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com >>>> >>>> >>>> "Tony: >>>> Thank you for your inquiry. >>>> >>>> In the email you mentioned that several companies have obtained equipment >>>> authorization for operation in the lower 25 MHz of the 3650-3700 MHz >>>> band. >>>> This is correct. In the Commission's evaluation these devices met the >>>> requirements for restricted contention based protocol operation. Thus >>>> all >>>> of these devices support contention based protocol, but they only support >>>> that for similar types of systems. They do not provide for recognizing >>>> and >>>> coexistence with other dissimilar systems. >>>> >>>> In order to obtain the authorization for the full 50 MHz operation the >>>> system has to demonstrate coexistence with different protocols. At the >>>> present time the Commission reviews each application on its merit to >>>> determine if the system meets the requirements for such unrestricted >>>> operation. The Commission is monitoring the progress of IEEE 802.16h and >>>> 802.11y working groups in terms of their plans to extend their respective >>>> protocols to support coexistence. We are encouraged by this development >>>> and >>>> think that they are in the right direction. However, it is not a >>>> precondition for authorization. In the absence of any industry standard, >>>> we >>>> treat each application on a case-by-case basis. One of the tests we do >>>> apply is the co-existence analysis recommendation currently under review >>>> by >>>> the 802.19 committee. We would expect to see some simulation to show how >>>> the proposed system would behave in the presence of other systems, the >>>> back-off strategies employed and approaches to fair sharing mechanisms. >>>> >>>> Please let us know if you have further questions. >>>> Thank you, >>>> Rashmi Doshi, PhD >>>> Chief, FCC Laboratory Division" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >> WISPA Wants You! 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