I fully agree. I'd rather a product line be cancelled than one released that would cause the buyers to loose face/money after we bought into the line. Of course what I would like most, is the product that the MM5 promised. But as the song goes, "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you can get what you need." To Trango's defense, it was an ambutious effort, and one nobody else could deliver on yet either. What I do respect is someone's vision to try, and Trango definately tried. Trango invested huge amounts of time and money R&Ding the MM5 product line, to the point that Betas were on the street. I applaud their vision and effort, even if it did not come to play. Its that vision, that has enabled Trango to put out so many good products that they have put out to date. Its that vision that is allowing a very strong base of Licensed products to develop today as well.
It still amazes me every day, that I have Radios installed and running since 2000 (eight years), and they are still my radio of choice in many many cases. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > I've heard most of the backstory on the Trango MM death. In a way I > think we should applaud Z for killing it. It would not do what we > needed for the next generation product it needed to be. He could have > delivered it half-baked, and maybe even broken even on it, but in the > long term, it would have cost us all. He took a painful loss, dropped > some programmers / engineers who could not deliver what they promised, > and is now regrouping. I've heard rumor of them considering "ramped up" > AP for the current line, but am not holding my breath. I also > understand they may be working on a very high-end 5GHZ ptp link radio > (like the Giga line). That could be a good thing too. 3.650 would be > nice :) > > Appreciate your input and insight Charles. > > Randy > > > Charles Wu wrote: >> Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic >> individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money >> (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur >> ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their >> cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability >> for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's >> currently racing to the bottom... >> >> Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a >> $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount >> (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 >> different WISPs, which would you pick? >> >> That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by >> Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the >> only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in >> 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line >> >> So yell at them for not being willing to take a "longer-term" view of the >> market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even >> possible? >> >> Broken promises in telecom are nothing new >> >> Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got "left behind" with the >> Canopy 400 series product) >> Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt >> EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) >> Remember KarlNet? >> >> Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever >> heard of CopperCom =) >> >> -Charles >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> WiNOG Wireless Roadshows >> Coming to a City Near You >> http://www.winog.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >> >> Hi, >> >> You are correct... my mistake. >> >> However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 >> (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. >> Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? >> Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( >> >> Travis >> >> >> Charles Wu wrote: >> >>> Travis, >>> >>> The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a >>> systems >>> >>> The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my >>> understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put >>> on hold / discontinued >>> >>> -Charles >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> WiNOG Wireless Roadshows >>> Coming to a City Near You >>> http://www.winog.com >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>> >>> What about Trango? >>> >>> Charles Wu wrote: >>> >>> So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mini-PCI: >>> >>> Ubiquiti >>> >>> Zcomax >>> >>> >>> >>> Vendor Solutions: >>> >>> Tranzeo >>> >>> Alvarion >>> >>> Vecima/WaveRider >>> >>> Wu-Wu Special* >>> >>> >>> >>> *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) >>> >>> >>> >>> -Charles >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents >>> >>> (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so >>> feel >>> >>> free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector >>> >>> >>> >>> configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver >>> >>> >>> >>> approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is >>> >>> >>> >>> supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same >>> >>> >>> >>> BSU. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there >>> >>> that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as >>> >>> to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties >>> >>> of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection >>> perspective, >>> >>> not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes >>> >>> don't do much in the presence of noise >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when >>> >>> you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers >>> 3-4x >>> >>> the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in >>> >>> the crowded 900 MHz band. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, >>> >>> >>> >>> Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features >>> >>> of WiMAX which needs to be explained... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Fictitious Scenario: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to >>> >>> enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC >>> features >>> >>> (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are >>> >>> customized to each user...blah blah blah >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and >>> a >>> >>> few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, >>> >>> I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS >>> >>> from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story >>> >>> gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / >>> >>> upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've >>> >>> deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is >>> >>> doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a >>> >>> "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on >>> Brand >>> >>> A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with >>> >>> Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would >>> support >>> >>> all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS >>> that >>> >>> I need >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, isn't going to work >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between >>> Brand >>> >>> A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic >>> >>> Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a >>> >>> 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to >>> maximize >>> >>> my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz & 7 MHz >>> >>> channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / >>> >>> VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and >>> replace >>> >>> my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Oops >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> What's the moral of the story? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest >>> common >>> >>> denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an >>> example >>> >>> where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that >>> >>> Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) >>> >>> >>> >>> NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? >>> >>> >>> >>> Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban >>> NLoS >>> >>> than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> See above >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more >>> >>> sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA >>> >>> systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a >>> >>> $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock >>> yourself >>> >>> into a "proprietary" implementation of your WiMAX system >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of >>> >>> >>> >>> subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an >>> >>> aggregate "throughput" range of ~10 Mbps per AP >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up >>> interoperability >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At the expense of interoperability >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order >>> >>> >>> >>> commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ubiquiti Lightstations are sub-$100 >>> >>> >>> >>> Tranzeos / Deliberant / whatever are in the $100-200 range >>> >>> >>> >>> Motorola Canopy / Alvarion is in the $200-300 range >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Oh, and they (just like WiMAX) are basically proprietary >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions >>> >>> >>> >>> available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls >>> >>> >>> >>> ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrier Class = $10k APs >>> >>> >>> >>> If you're willing to spend $10k for an AP - you can get a proprietary >>> >>> 'WISP' system that has all the "carrier-class" features of "WiMAX" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning >>> >>> >>> >>> and management of subscribers and base stations. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Lol...I find this amusing...as the WiMAX specification "overcomplicates" >>> >>> the provisioning process, so you now have the need to purchase a system >>> to >>> >>> simplify provisioning so it will work like a Canopy / Trango / Tranzeo / >>> >>> Alvarion =) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Supply and Demand at its best =/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> That said, if you are still interested in WiMAX after this "cold dose of >>> >>> reality," we have plenty of radios in stock =) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -Charles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> >>> >>> >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> WISPA Wants You! 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Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> > > -- > Randy Cosby > Vice President > InfoWest, Inc > > office: 435-773-6071 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
