Here is my philosophy... you don't need to know the conversion. The idea is to peak the dish as best as possible, if that is above our below the target RSSI its really not something you can fix on the tower besides alignment. Side lobes are just as easy to see with the voltmeter in my opinion. So once the dish is aligned, you can figure out where the extra dB loss is at (Fresnel zone issues for instance). On the Trango gear, if I am 10dB off yet I know I am on the main lobe because the side lobes are 10dB higher... and I can't get the dish better aligned... what advantage am I sitting at with the RSSI indicator? The voltmeter is much more accurate, and adjusts immediately to a decimal so I have a clearer picture quicker on if its getting bigger or worse.
I can't argue with your practical example there... my WISP experience was probably different from the norm in having so many dedicated tower engineers/techs, dedicated customer install fix techs, and dedicated installers. We rarely had to rely on techs from other departments to do something outside their job... but for a smaller WISP I understand that is the norm. I personally would like to see both on the ODU :-) but not at the expense of the BNC connector Daniel White 3-dB Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:10 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex > > > Shouldn't it be attached with a BNC connector on o > > You got me there. If the proper cables exist to accomplish that, its all > good to use a voltmeter. > > Provided that the the Voltage to DB conversions is accurate, and that the > installer can remember what voltage they should have to a certain db. > > Where this applies is with side lobes and such. When its a DB reading, it > is > always clear whether you are within 2-4 db of the actuall signal you > engineered to reieve, > For example, you instantly recognize that if you are 20db off calculated > signal, you are probably aligned to a side lobe. The math conversion > doesn't > have to be made in the head. > Voltage to db curve is not always proportional. For example when aligning > Proxim 60Ghz, it was a voltage range from 1 to 3 volts. Sure I knew 2 > volts > was our target number, but what did it really mean if I got 1.34 volts? It > meant looking at a graph on paper, and calculating what DB it was > equivellent to. > > So in summary I'm saying.... it may be just as easy to align and find the > center with a Voltmeter, maybe even easier. But with an LED, its easier to > have a ball park view of where you are at with alignment. The LED also > give > the value that its there for times when you aren't repaired in advance. I > can give an example of last week, when the Tech did not fasten the antenna > bolts tight enough, and the antenna blew slightly out of alignment. When > I > was out in the field on sasles calls, I was able to send the clsoest tech, > who was NOT prepared with the right voltmenter and special cable, and a > charged laptop battery, and he was still empowered to fix the roof top > link > w/ the LED. All our techs, at minimum, carry a wrench with them. > > On a side note, if this were on a real "tower", this oviously is not an > advantage, as nobody would justify climbing a comercial tower, without > being > adequately prepared with tools/meters needed. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex > > > >- Link Quality > > > > We looked at the BER results, etc. I guess what I was saying was I did > > not > > get the opportunity to kill them and test PPS or actual throughput... > all > > I > > did was climb the tower where they had already been installed, align the > > dish, and configure the IDU. So I can't give a completely fair analysis > > of > > the radios... > > > > - LED > > > > I agree it is bright and position is optimal. With the sun shining > > directly > > on it I had to constantly cover it up with my hand to read the numbers > > though. If I had a voltmeter I would have just repositioned it on the > > ODU. > > The position of the LED is also fine on the ODU, but depending on how > the > > dish was mounted and I was hanging off the tower it could be in a > position > > blocked by a crossmember, etc. There is no way to engineer this better, > > but > > the ability to move the voltmeter around is preferable. I also prefer > the > > accuracy of the voltmeter to the two digit LED... I guess my optimal > > solution would be to include both on the ODU... > > > > - Voltmeter... > > > > Shouldn't it be attached with a BNC connector on one end and wired into > > the > > voltmeter on the other. I don't understand your comment about having to > > deal with the wires... > > > > - Mounting Hoist > > > > I agree... it would make life much easier if they could install a hook > on > > the back of the dish much like the Orthogon radios > > > > - Pricing > > > > I think my point is that they are very close now, and I like the > > Dragonwave > > product more than the Trango product (although from what I can tell it > > appears to be a decent product, although the firmware is still a bit > > buggy). > > I guess my point is that anyone looking to buy a link shouldn't just buy > > Trango because of the perceived cost savings... real or imaginary. Do > the > > research and determine for yourself. I'm also slightly biased because > we > > are a Dragonwave Reseller... but I also resell Ceragon, Exalt, Cielo, > and > > Nera. Each product is good, and each one has an advantage over the > other. > > If I owned a WISP though... I would probably only deploy Dragonwave (At > > least until Moto's product comes out). I also prefer Bridgewave for > > 60GHz/80GHz links :-) > > > > Daniel White > > 3-dB Networks > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > >> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:22 AM > >> To: WISPA General List > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex > >> > >> Daniel, > >> > >> > Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber > >> port > >> > in them? > >> > >> I don't know, I don't work for Trango's shipping department. Logically > >> Every > >> item has a price, and I'm sure Sale people factor in or out that price, > >> when > >> giving someone a best custom quote to meet their need. > >> > >> The APEX has an embedded SPF port with EVERY radio made. But its up to > >> the > >> buyer to determine what SPF transiever they get to insert in it. > >> > >> For me.... My Trango quote, included the fiber transiever. > >> > >> > I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all > >> > happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the > >> customer > >> > I > >> > was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the > >> > Trango > >> > Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I > did > >> was > >> > install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx > Meg... > >> > but > >> > I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. > >> > >> Note... The Trango Giga is a totally different product than the APEX. > >> They > >> should not be treated as the same. > >> For example, what features require reboots to change, how it handles > >> adaptime modulation, etc. > >> > >> It saying... "256QAM 300mbps" is not enough, to be certain you have a > >> good > >> link. > >> I learned that the first 3 months workign with the Gigas, and any high > >> capacity millimeterwave product. > >> We have a whole slew of tests that we perform to verify performance and > >> link > >> quality. > >> We never just trust that it works. > >> > >> With our APEX link, we put it up, and it worked flawlessly for us, at > >> 366mbps. > >> > >> Testing a link is not always easy at 366mbps. Because the testing tools > >> need > >> to be able to test at that high a speed. > >> > >> > What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC > >> connector > >> > hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to > read > >> to > >> > decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED > >> > is > >> > about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it > with > >> > your > >> > hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I > >> > was > >> > aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made > >> > reading > >> > the LED difficult. > >> > >> In my experience, none of those above comments are true. The LED is a > >> very > >> bright LED, compared to any LED Voltmeter that I have ever used. > >> The LED is as optimally positioned as possible. > >> > >> > None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I > >> > simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU > where > >> I > >> > want. > >> > >> Thats one way to get around the limitation of not having an LED on your > >> unit. > >> Volt meter, is also an easy way to do it, we used the Voltmeters for > our > >> PRoxim 60Ghz installs. > >> But the difficulty in using teh VOltMeter is running out of hands. You > >> have > >> to hold the lead wires to the radio terminals some how. > >> Its easy for a 1ft dish, but not so easy when alignign a 3ft dish. The > >> dish > >> needs to be loose enough to move, but not losse enough for the wind to > >> move. > >> It really helps to have BOTH hands free, when working with aligning the > >> larger dishes. > >> > >> > One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made > >> > aligning > >> > 3ft > >> > dishes a bit easier... > >> > >> What I don't like, is there is not a real good way to hoist/hook the > >> large > >> antennas up the tower. > >> The only holes to wrap the rope around are holes that need screws > through > >> them eventually, or wrapping around the mount that results in it > hanging > >> in > >> a different position than it is mounted. But I'm not aware of any > other > >> antenna/mount vendor that does it better. > >> As a feature add, I'd like to see a seperate hole at the top of the > >> mount, > >> specifically made for the hoist rope to clip on. > >> > >> > With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the > >> > summer > >> > special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage > >> anyone > >> > to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with > >> Dragonwave... > >> > from what I understand I can come damn close :-) > >> > >> I won't talk price on list. But I can tell you that Dragonwave was not > >> able > >> to match the Trango price in my experience. > >> Dragonwave came close, until we started adding on software licenses and > >> Add-ons (like antennas and Hi-Power upgrades) > >> Dragonwave also makes a very nice radio. And the Dragonwave platform > has > >> some unique advantages. Some people may be willing to pay more for > those > >> advantages. > >> As well, Dragonwave has the advantage of the "Channel" > >> (distributors/resellers) behind it, for those that prefer that. > >> > >> But in my opinion, on a straight hardware/performance/price comparison, > >> the > >> APEX appears to be the new Dragonwave killer. > >> I really couldn't find any flaws in the APEX, yet. > >> > >> > Daniel White > >> > 3-dB Networks > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On > >> > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM > >> > To: WISPA General List > >> > Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex > >> > > >> > Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I > >> > thought > >> > > >> > I'd share my recent experience.... > >> > > >> > OK.... 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. > And.... > >> it > >> > just freakin Worked! > >> > WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. > >> > > >> > I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 > >> > ports, > >> > 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband > >> management > >> > on > >> > > >> > the GigE. > >> > What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports > >> could > >> > be > >> > > >> > used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run > >> > stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. > >> > But > >> I > >> > was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. > >> The > >> > alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient > place > >> > and > >> > shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made > it > >> > possible for one person to accurately align it. > >> > > >> > Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year > in > >> > their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading > to > >> > the > >> > latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... > >> All > >> > the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really > >> > pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along > >> > nicely. > >> > > >> > Only thing I caution to be aware of is.... It takes a while to fully > >> > understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in > >> > relation > >> > to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of > >> > measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive > Modulation > >> > thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter > >> works > >> > good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to > >> > interperate it. > >> > > >> > I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking > >> > out > >> > of > >> > opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. > >> > > >> > Tom DeReggi > >> > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? > >> > > >> > > >> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" > >> >>>decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could > >> >>>support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it > >> >>>today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on > >> >>>the market: > >> >> > >> >> I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. > >> >> I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I > >> >> would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are > >> >> that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. > >> >> > >> >>>Next = Mikrotik > >> >>>Next = Trango, Canopy, etc > >> >> > >> >> Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class > >> >> as Trango and Canopy. > >> >> > >> >>>So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last > >> >>>2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal R&D to focus on WiMax? > >> >> > >> >> I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened > >> >> to the R&D. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good > >> >> example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is > >> >> expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", > >> >> but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are > >> >> working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is > >> >> available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. > >> >> They service companies that are better funded, which typically means > >> >> larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. > >> >> > >> >> I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't > >> >> intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole > >> >> would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is > >> >> better" mindframe. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> ******************************************************************** > >> >> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* > >> >> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * > >> >> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * > >> >> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * > >> >> ******************************************************************** > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> ---- > >> > ---- > >> >> WISPA Wants You! 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