Comments inline.... Before anyone reads further... I have the upmost respect for John... and I honestly believe Trango has done many things right over the years. I'll also be the first one to say that the Trango PTP products will work... but to me the price difference isn't enough to switch to Trango.
I'd also like to point out... I only defend Dragonwave because I think it is the best product on the market from my personal experience. I've installed Trango, Dragonwave, Harris, Ceragon, and PCOM gear... and have had the best experiences with Dragonwave. I only preach what I know works, from my own personal experience. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of John Seaman >Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:08 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's >units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have >shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge >specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater >and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside >the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Trango being a private company is the number one reason people don't know what is going on over there John. You can claim your profitable all day long and selling thousands of links... but saying most of them have shipped overseas doesn't help anything. So what we can do is look at the FCC database... and if you do that anyone can clearly see there isn't too much of the stuff out there. >Our >overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and >the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction >and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be >acting so nervous? Are they really? Yes Dragonwave is becoming more competitive in their pricing... but other than that I haven't seen moves by any other vendor that shows "nervousness". Personally I've heard more trepidation over Motorola entering the market. On a side note... I just got a lot of the pre-release documents on their product line... man does it look promising... and surprisingly at a reasonable price point (meaning in the same space as Dragonwave/Trango... of course who knows until the final pricing is announced) >Trango has firmly established itself with >TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. But that is a very very limited market... >Now we are also gaining >excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as >the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities >of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by >far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still >strictly TDM). I'd love to hear some case studies and whitepapers... I do know of one local city that purchased a few... so I'm not saying your wrong... but I'd for one like to hear more. BTW... I'd argue the point that most mobile operators are strictly TDM... many are doing Psudeowire solutions now. >There is no stopping Trango. Not to be a smart ass here... but is that way happened with the OFDM PTMP product line? I think it's interesting that the bread and butter portion of the business is bleeding like crazy... I'm seeing WISP after WISP ditch their Trango gear for Motorola/Mikrotik/3.65... can the PTP business sustain Trango? >We will continue to peck >away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger >and larger portions of it. Not going to argue the fact that you have taken some of Dragonwave's market share... but the latest numbers I have seen still put Dragonwave leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else. >Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it >was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money >quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... I can't do that for Trango... so how does anyone know how profitable you guys are? I'd also argue that Dragonwave appears to be spending money investing in the company... and unlike Trango... I haven't heard of them laying off batches of employees. Anyways they gotta be doing something right... and I don't think anyone is questioning they will be around 5 years from now... yet many (not just me) have doubts about Trango... >I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products >handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many >similarities and also some key differences. Right... and it is those key differences that make me believe Dragonwave is a better product. >For those who may not be >aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and >TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 >GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), Why do you need more than one? I'd rather install my own managed switch which is going to give me much more flexibility... for the life of me I don't understand why you would need the four GigE ports... especially since its not 4 switched GigE ports. >8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). Pseudowire... anyways TDM is antiquted and falling away. I'd also like to point out John... your argument for why Cell companies are not purchasing your product is that they are a strictly TDM... if you offer native TDM why are they buying Dragonwave over your product? >The APEX is >the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a >plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine >how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is >anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). You order the Horizon Compact with the optical interface from the factory. Here is the explanation from the Horizon Compact Manual... "A weatherproof, MIL specification, multi-pin, connector is provided for Port 2, which includes the power feed. Port 1 has a weatherproof optical fibre connector. Single mode and multimode fibre options are available. As with the copper variant, Port 1 supports data traffic and optional in-band management and Port 2 is for optional out-of-band management only. In the optical variant, power (-36 to -60 V DC) is fed to Port 2 via a short 'Y' adapter cable, which also includes a weatherproof, in-line, RJ-45 connector for connecting to the optional out-of-band management overlay network. The power feed wires (see Table 3-2 for recommended gauge) are spliced into the adapter cable using weatherproof tap connectors. The power feed and Port 2 Ethernet cables (maximum length 100 m) are fed through a Transtector surge arrestor unit designed to protect power and network circuits from transients." >Both >of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used >simultaneously. Same with Horizon Compact... one for traffic... the other for out of band management... >GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS >functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. Same with Dragonwave... >The multiple port option >allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next. >Dragonwave does not have this feature. In my opinion though... it is a very limited feature. If you need to segregate traffic... VLAN's work. >The APEX offers TRUE "Hitless" >ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will move >to slower modulations without taking any hits. I don't believe that >Horizon Compact offers hitless ACM. Daniel, feel free to correct me if >I am wrong. Nope your right... not offered at the moment but I understand it is coming in a future firmware release. Currently it is at 50ms. The one thing though that Dragonwave does that Trango does not as far as I know... is that Trango does not upshift back once AAM has kicked in. Dragonwave does. This is a huge thing to me... if I have 5 links in my network and some weather moves through... I don't want to have to log into each link and re-enable the higher modulations. >Regarding the GIGA, one other point which comes up often >is that the Dragonwave split solution (Airpair) allows only for very >short (300 ft?) IF cable runs. TrangoLINK-GIGA allows for 1000 ft of >cable. The Dragonwave Airpair is for all intents and purposes an end of lifed product. The new comparison needs to be to the current product, the Dragonwave Horizon Duo. Anyways using LMR-400 cable you can go 157 feet, LMR-600 247 feet, and LMR-900 364 feet. If you need to go further... why not just use fiber? >As for Daniel's other points: >-Products available now: TrangoLINK-GIGA 6, 11, 18, 23 GHz. APEX 18, 11 >GHz. 23 Ghz coming next month. Right... the Apex is pretty limited at this point. >-Power Consumption: TrangoLINK-APEX power consumption is lower than >Horizon Compact High power version although higher than Horizon standard >power version, which stands to reason. But an important thing to know for solar powered sites, etc. >-Field Proven: Latest releases of GIGA and APEX firmware highly stable. >TrangoLINK-GIGA has been in the field for 18 months now. Right... so your longest deployed gear isn't even out of the warranty period... I wouldn't say that is truly field proven at 18 months. >-CLI/GUI: You can do a full link setup using only the GUI interface on >GIGA and APEX although admitedly the CLI has more functionality. Our >firware engineers will enhance this in future releases. The CLI is very >much like a Cisco interface and most users are very comfortable in the >CLI. I won't say I wasn't comfortable with your CLI... but the average tech installing the gear is looking for a rich GUI. >-LED Allignment - the allignment tool has received rave reviews from >most installers. One thing I'd like to mention is that our newer ODUs >coming out, and all APEX models have built-in power detector in the ODU >to make the RSSI readouts more responsive than in the earlier ODUs. So >the LED indicator that Daniel used on his nine-link deployment has >improved greatly in that it is highly responsive. Daniel if you get a >chance to do another allignment I am sure you will love the LED >allignment tool on the newer radios. While I'm glad to hear its improved... I'll never be happy with it. I had issues reading the display in direct sunlight, and also had problems where I had to be hanging on the tower a specific way to read the display. The LED will never be as accurate as the true reading from a voltmeter... and with the voltmeter I can position it where it will be most comfortable for me to read. But this is all personal preference I guess. >- APEX output power 3-8 dB better than Horizon compact standard model. >Horizon HP version 2.5 dB better than APEX at higher modulations (better >at lower modulation). >- Trango 18 Ghz covers 17.7 GHz - 18.14 & 19.265 - 19.7 GHz. This is >440 MHz of spectrum.. I dont know the DW spec on this, but I do know >that I've never heard of a license being declined because there's not >enough channels availble in the radio. Yet... but to me it is amazing how many people are deploying 18GHz even though 23GHz will work just fine. Anyways I want to stand corrected... I meant to say 11GHz in my previous post... not 18GHz. 18GHz is the same basically for both manufacturers. >- Daniel is the only one I've heard of complaining about the waveguide >transition between he ODU and the antenna. It requires four little >screws to put it in. My complaint probably has more to do with the idiot who installed them that I had to correct half of them on the tower. Also had one strip out... You also have to have a long narrow screw driver for them... granted Trango hands them out like candy but I didn't have one... had to go buy one :-) In the end... its just one more piece you have to worry about... and if someone installs one the wrong way that can be a fun issue to diagnose! >Not a big deal. The only reason we don't attach >it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a >waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to >connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with >any dish with a waveguide flange. Fair enough... but I would think it's probably the exception more than the rule in most deployments. The Dragonwave transition at least comes with the whole kit ready to go... so not a bad thing overall to me. >- Contact us or CTI for pricing off-list. > > > > >John Seaman >Trango Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:36 AM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >Brad, > >Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on >why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed nine >Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal >experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't >repost these comments because many got tired of the whole >Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier >though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go >back through the achieves. > >- Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth of >equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or so. >It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the market, >especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. > >- Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all >available now. > >- Lower power consumption > >- Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been in >the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still >buggy. > >- CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the >CLI. >Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be configured >either way easily. > >- LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is >not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning >difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. >four). From my own personal experience on this one. > >- Better link margins when using the High Power product > >- Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up >the e-mail I sent to the list about this. > >- Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and the >ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I did >(9 >links) > >The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing on >the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... hit >me offlist. > >Daniel White >3-dB Networks >http://www.3dbnetworks.com > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > >>Behalf Of Brad Belton >>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM >>To: 'WISPA General List' >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >> >>Hello Daniel, >> >>Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you > >>to back up your statements regarding "close" in price and "performance >>much better". Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing >>product and run the other way. >> >>I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... >> >>Best, >> >> >>Brad >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > >>Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM >>To: 'WISPA General List' >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >> >>I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple >>threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you >>want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. >> >>As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave >>and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal > >>opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... > >>compared to what I would consider the benefits. >> >>Daniel White >>3-dB Networks >>http://www.3dbnetworks.com >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM >>>To: WISPA General List >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >>> >>>All, >>> >>>When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% >>premium >>>for a Dragonwave product. >>> >>>There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a > >>>bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your >>>application for which product you would like to go with. I would be >>>more than happy to walk you through everything. >>> >>>I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. >>> >>>-Jeff >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>On Behalf Of Brad Belton >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM >>>To: 'WISPA General List' >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >>> >>>Hello Daniel, >>> >>>Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave "performance is much >>>better"? >>>Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a >>>Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in >>>this case. >>> >>>Exactly how close is "close" when you mention pricing between the two >>>products? "Close" is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we >>>talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? >>> >>>Look forward to your responses. >>> >>>Thank you, >>> >>> >>>Brad >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM >>>To: 'WISPA General List' >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >>> >>>Well... >>> >>>I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be >>>surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the >>>performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). >>> >>>We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. >>> >>>Hit me offlist if you like. >>> >>>Daniel White >>>3-dB Networks >>>http://www.3dbnetworks.com >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>On >>>>Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet >>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM >>>>To: WISPA General List >>>>Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link >>>> >>>>I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys > >>>>suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I > >>>>am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. >>>>So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>> _ >>>>/-\ ndrew >>>> >>>> >>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>- >>- >>>- >>>>-------- >>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>- >>- >>>- >>>>-------- >>>> >>>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> >>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>- >>- >>>---- >>>---- >>>WISPA Wants You! 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