We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1.
On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective <2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: > Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are > very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz > market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do > know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing > fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are > so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that > has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear > others view points on 24 GHz. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > > > The only reason we don't attach > > it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a > > waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want > > to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used > > with any dish with a waveguide flange. > > Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower > DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed > dish. > > As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I > can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't > possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached > a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical > compromise anymore > to gain a "better price". I will not get into a debate of which > product is > "better", as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less > preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. > But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their > price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. > There was a time that "Dragonwave" was considered the "premium" product, > but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that > Trango is now becomming the more "premium" product. I'll leave that > decission to the prospective buyer. > > What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their > distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more > competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, > and the markup they add to generate sales. > > What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add > it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower > WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. > (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). > > What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and > supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary > power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel > was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, > without compromise. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Seaman" <j...@trangosys.com> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > > > > Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's > > units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have > > shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge > > specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR > greater > > and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside > > the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our > > overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and > > the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, > traction > > and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be > > acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with > > TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining > > excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well > as > > the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest > quantities > > of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy > by > > far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still > > strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck > > away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger > > and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, > it > > was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money > > quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. > > > > I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products > > handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many > > similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be > > aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and > > TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 > > GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is > > the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a > > plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to > determine > > how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is > > anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). > Both > > of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used > > simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS > > functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port > option > > allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the > next. > > Dragonwave does not have this feature. The APEX offers TRUE > "Hitless" > > ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will > move > > to slower modulations without taking any hits. I don't believe that > > Horizon Compact offers hitless ACM. Daniel, feel free to correct me > if > > I am wrong. Regarding the GIGA, one other point which comes up often > > is that the Dragonwave split solution (Airpair) allows only for very > > short (300 ft?) IF cable runs. TrangoLINK-GIGA allows for 1000 ft of > > cable. > > > > As for Daniel's other points: > > -Products available now: TrangoLINK-GIGA 6, 11, 18, 23 GHz. APEX 18, > 11 > > GHz. 23 Ghz coming next month. > > -Power Consumption: TrangoLINK-APEX power consumption is lower than > > Horizon Compact High power version although higher than Horizon > standard > > power version, which stands to reason. > > -Field Proven: Latest releases of GIGA and APEX firmware highly > stable. > > TrangoLINK-GIGA has been in the field for 18 months now. > > -CLI/GUI: You can do a full link setup using only the GUI interface > on > > GIGA and APEX although admitedly the CLI has more functionality. Our > > firware engineers will enhance this in future releases. The CLI is > very > > much like a Cisco interface and most users are very comfortable in the > > CLI. > > -LED Allignment - the allignment tool has received rave reviews from > > most installers. One thing I'd like to mention is that our newer ODUs > > coming out, and all APEX models have built-in power detector in the > ODU > > to make the RSSI readouts more responsive than in the earlier ODUs. > So > > the LED indicator that Daniel used on his nine-link deployment has > > improved greatly in that it is highly responsive. Daniel if you get a > > chance to do another allignment I am sure you will love the LED > > allignment tool on the newer radios. > > - APEX output power 3-8 dB better than Horizon compact standard model. > > Horizon HP version 2.5 dB better than APEX at higher modulations > (better > > at lower modulation). > > - Trango 18 Ghz covers 17.7 GHz - 18.14 & 19.265 - 19.7 GHz. This is > > 440 MHz of spectrum.. I dont know the DW spec on this, but I do know > > that I've never heard of a license being declined because there's not > > enough channels availble in the radio. > > - Daniel is the only one I've heard of complaining about the waveguide > > transition between he ODU and the antenna. It requires four little > > screws to put it in. Not a big deal. The only reason we don't attach > > it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a > > waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want > to > > connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with > > any dish with a waveguide flange. > > - Contact us or CTI for pricing off-list. > > > > > > > > > > John Seaman > > Trango Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > On > > Behalf Of 3-dB Networks > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:36 AM > > To: 'WISPA General List' > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > > > > Brad, > > > > Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on > > why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed > nine > > Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal > > experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't > > repost these comments because many got tired of the whole > > Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier > > though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go > > back through the achieves. > > > > - Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth > of > > equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or > so. > > It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the > market, > > especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. > > > > - Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all > > available now. > > > > - Lower power consumption > > > > - Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been > in > > the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still > > buggy. > > > > - CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the > > CLI. > > Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be > configured > > either way easily. > > > > - LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is > > not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning > > difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. > > four). From my own personal experience on this one. > > > > - Better link margins when using the High Power product > > > > - Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up > > the e-mail I sent to the list about this. > > > > - Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and > the > > ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I > did > > (9 > > links) > > > > The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing > on > > the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... > hit > > me offlist. > > > > Daniel White > > 3-dB Networks > > http://www.3dbnetworks.com > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > On > > > >>Behalf Of Brad Belton > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM > >>To: 'WISPA General List' > >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >> > >>Hello Daniel, > >> > >>Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from > you > > > >>to back up your statements regarding "close" in price and "performance > >>much better". Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing > >>product and run the other way. > >> > >>I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... > >> > >>Best, > >> > >> > >>Brad > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > On > > > >>Behalf Of 3-dB Networks > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM > >>To: 'WISPA General List' > >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >> > >>I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple > >>threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you > >>want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. > >> > >>As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave > >>and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my > personal > > > >>opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave > name... > > > >>compared to what I would consider the benefits. > >> > >>Daniel White > >>3-dB Networks > >>http://www.3dbnetworks.com > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > >>>On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman > >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM > >>>To: WISPA General List > >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >>> > >>>All, > >>> > >>>When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% > >>premium > >>>for a Dragonwave product. > >>> > >>>There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab > a > > > >>>bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your > >>>application for which product you would like to go with. I would be > >>>more than happy to walk you through everything. > >>> > >>>I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. > >>> > >>>-Jeff > >>> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > >>>On Behalf Of Brad Belton > >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM > >>>To: 'WISPA General List' > >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >>> > >>>Hello Daniel, > >>> > >>>Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave "performance is much > >>>better"? > >>>Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a > >>>Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in > >>>this case. > >>> > >>>Exactly how close is "close" when you mention pricing between the two > >>>products? "Close" is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we > >>>talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? > >>> > >>>Look forward to your responses. > >>> > >>>Thank you, > >>> > >>> > >>>Brad > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > >>>On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks > >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM > >>>To: 'WISPA General List' > >>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >>> > >>>Well... > >>> > >>>I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be > >>>surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the > >>>performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole > thread). > >>> > >>>We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. > >>> > >>>Hit me offlist if you like. > >>> > >>>Daniel White > >>>3-dB Networks > >>>http://www.3dbnetworks.com > >>> > >>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > >>On > >>>>Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM > >>>>To: WISPA General List > >>>>Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link > >>>> > >>>>I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you > guys > > > >>>>suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. > I > > > >>>>am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. > >>>>So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all > ears! > >>>> > >>>>Thanks, > >>>> _ > >>>>/-\ ndrew > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>>- > >>- > >>>- > >>>>-------- > >>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>>- > >>- > >>>- > >>>>-------- > >>>> > >>>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>> > >>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>> > >>>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>- > >>- > >>>---- > >>>---- > >>>WISPA Wants You! 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