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Tom, I think you are missing a BIG key that many ISP's (starting clear back in the dial-up days) have missed. The best mix, use of resources, and profitability comes from having high ARPU business customers AND residential users. Why? Because the business customers use the bandwidth from 8:00AM to 5:00PM M-F... while the residential users are 5:00PM to 8:00AM M-F and weekends. As far as user counts go, we are about 90% residential and 10% business... but as far as revenue it's probably closer to 80%/20% or even 70%/30%. We sell a lot of residential wireless and yet our peak bandwdith usage is at 10:00AM M-F... so I am able to sell that same bandwidth again at night to the residential users. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: No its not an unrealistic goal, if the business model is low margin high volume type subs. There can be much less maintenance with building a business model on a smaller number of business subs, making it not necessary to get that much per sub. For example, We'll sell 10Mhz of spectrum for $1000/month, to a single customer. Where that will only yield us $2000 per sectors, its also only 2 customer and locations to support.I will also say that in competitive served markets, its getting harder and harder to get 100 users on a AP, if in a market thats asking for 5mbps speeds, or > 1mbps uploads. Sure, I've gotten 75 users on a 3mb 900 sectors, in an unserved market, but that is different that a market competing with Cable and Fios, for example, where users actually expect to be able to upload with bit torrent, and watch their NetFlix movies. In my earlier years, I was sold on the fact that low ARPU subs was the better market, because if selling 1mbps services, the oversubscription ratios on 10mb sectors could be much much higher. However, I am learning that the High ARPU higher capacity business, with little over subscriptions, is proving more profitable. Its also changes a bit, if wholesale markets are required. Sure if you are the only one in town, onme can stand firm on maximizing the return per sector, at $5K per sector. But a reseller won't pay you $5k per sector, they'll building over you instead. Sometimes its worth getting much less per sector, using the reseller, instead of competiing with their interference otherwise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change oftopic -- customers / APTravis It has been great to see how you have turned into seasoned Canopy provider .... SO i must assume your opinion of the product has changed recently... Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 ________________________________ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP Hi, I think that's maybe a little high... we have a Canopy AP right now with 100 users on it... about 10% business and 90% residential.... and it's probably bringing in about $3,500 / month. We will probably load it up to about 120 users total, at which point it will be around $4,000 / month. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP? I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now 20 business customers during the day time (8-5) 60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12) Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal Thoughts? Comments? -Charles -----Original Message----- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a bit in the process... thanks. I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a $5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg... At least for discussion sake. But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds true for the most part. Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the conversation starts to get a lot more complex :) But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion... Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 -------- Original Message -------- From: "Charles Wu" <IMCEAEX-_O=CTI_OU=EXCHANGE+20ADMINISTRATIVE+20GROUP+20+28FYDIBOHF23SPDL T+29 _cn=recipients_cn=char...@converge-tech.com> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however. I've got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but only put out about 18-25meg at those distances. That's enough for me, but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed link. Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the engineers who built that radio =) And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a PTP600 does / can do However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah... That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough" True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not more) important when talking about WISP networks That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow my logic here... The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, is EBITDA) In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels) Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue) 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue) 3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your backhaul ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add more customers on your tower Some food for thought =) -Charles ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- WISPA Wants You! 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