Not sure but we make 2-4x more off customers with voip with minimal extra investment
Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Apr 12, 2009, at 11:47 PM, Travis Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > That brings up a whole new point that I had never considered.... > > How many more users can you put on an AP if you are NOT providing > VoIP services that you have to support? It would seem you could make > up any profit on VoIP by being able to add a few additional users to > an AP that you couldn't before... :) > > Travis > Microserv > > Scott Carullo wrote: >> >> Doesn't all the residential associations still affect your business >> latency etc? Or is it small enough not to be noticed? >> >> You also don't do voip that changes the game. You can get away >> with a >> lot with just data... >> >> Scott Carullo >> Brevard Wireless >> (321) 205-1100 x102 >> >> On Apr 12, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Travis Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>> Tom, >>> >>> I think you are missing a BIG key that many ISP's (starting clear >>> back in the dial-up days) have missed. The best mix, use of >>> resources, and profitability comes from having high ARPU business >>> customers AND residential users. Why? Because the business customers >>> use the bandwidth from 8:00AM to 5:00PM M-F... while the residential >>> users are 5:00PM to 8:00AM M-F and weekends. >>> >>> As far as user counts go, we are about 90% residential and 10% >>> business... but as far as revenue it's probably closer to 80%/20% or >>> even 70%/30%. We sell a lot of residential wireless and yet our peak >>> bandwdith usage is at 10:00AM M-F... so I am able to sell that same >>> bandwidth again at night to the residential users. >>> >>> Travis >>> Microserv >>> >>> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>> >>>> No its not an unrealistic goal, if the business model is low margin >>>> high >>>> volume type subs. >>>> There can be much less maintenance with building a business model >>>> on a >>>> smaller number of business subs, making it not necessary to get >>>> that much >>>> per sub. >>>> For example, We'll sell 10Mhz of spectrum for $1000/month, to a >>>> single >>>> customer. Where that will only yield us $2000 per sectors, its also >>>> only 2 >>>> customer and locations to support. >>>> >>>> I will also say that in competitive served markets, its getting >>>> harder and >>>> harder to get 100 users on a AP, if in a market thats asking for >>>> 5mbps >>>> speeds, or > 1mbps uploads. Sure, I've gotten 75 users on a 3mb >>>> 900 >>>> sectors, in an unserved market, but that is different that a market >>>> competing with Cable and Fios, for example, where users actually >>>> expect to >>>> be able to upload with bit torrent, and watch their NetFlix movies. >>>> >>>> In my earlier years, I was sold on the fact that low ARPU subs was >>>> the >>>> better market, because if selling 1mbps services, the >>>> oversubscription >>>> ratios on 10mb sectors could be much much higher. However, I am >>>> learning >>>> that the High ARPU higher capacity business, with little over >>>> subscriptions, >>>> is proving more profitable. >>>> >>>> Its also changes a bit, if wholesale markets are required. Sure if >>>> you are >>>> the only one in town, onme can stand firm on maximizing the return >>>> per >>>> sector, at $5K per sector. >>>> But a reseller won't pay you $5k per sector, they'll building over >>>> you >>>> instead. Sometimes its worth getting much less per sector, using >>>> the >>>> reseller, instead of competiing with their interference otherwise. >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi >>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[email protected]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:41 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - >>>> change >>>> oftopic -- customers / AP >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> >>>>> It has been great to see how you have turned into seasoned Canopy >>>>> provider .... >>>>> >>>>> SO i must assume your opinion of the product has changed >>>>> recently... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gino A. Villarini >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:wireless- >>>>> [email protected]] On >>>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - >>>>> change of >>>>> topic -- customers / AP >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I think that's maybe a little high... we have a Canopy AP right >>>>> now with >>>>> 100 users on it... about 10% business and 90% residential.... and >>>>> it's >>>>> probably bringing in about $3,500 / month. We will probably load >>>>> it up >>>>> to about 120 users total, at which point it will be around >>>>> $4,000 / >>>>> month. >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> Charles Wu wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP? >>>>> >>>>> I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, >>>>> while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal >>>>> >>>>> Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate >>>>> >>>>> Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers >>>>> sharing 14 Mb >>>>> Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month >>>>> residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now >>>>> >>>>> 20 business customers during the day time (8-5) >>>>> 60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12) >>>>> >>>>> Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting >>>>> into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being >>>>> covered, >>>>> blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an >>>>> unreasonable goal >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? Comments? >>>>> >>>>> -Charles >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and >>>>> learned a >>>>> bit in the process... thanks. >>>>> >>>>> I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers >>>>> trained to a >>>>> common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or >>>>> achieving a >>>>> $5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg... At least >>>>> for >>>>> discussion sake. But - even at 1/5th of that your argument >>>>> still holds >>>>> true for the most part. Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as >>>>> common) >>>>> and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc >>>>> and also >>>>> mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just >>>>> effectively >>>>> doubled your options based on what type of clients you are >>>>> servicing etc... >>>>> Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc >>>>> and the >>>>> conversation starts to get a lot more complex :) >>>>> >>>>> But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion... >>>>> >>>>> Scott Carullo >>>>> Brevard Wireless >>>>> 321-205-1100 x102 >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: "Charles Wu" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <IMCEAEX-_O=CTI_OU=EXCHANGE+20ADMINISTRATIVE+20GROUP >>>>> +20+28FYDIBOHF23SPDL >>>>> T+29 >>>>> [email protected]> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. >>>>> Unlicensed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I do see Travis's point about the longer range >>>>> shots, however. I've >>>>> got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and >>>>> they work just fine but >>>>> only put out about 18-25meg at those distances. >>>>> That's enough for me, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> but I can see where you would want more capacity >>>>> and I suppose that >>>>> within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be >>>>> better than a licensed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> link. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 >>>>> years old, is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure >>>>> technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination >>>>> of 1024FFT >>>>> OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided >>>>> to get the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> engineers who built that radio =) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the >>>>> wonderful things that a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> PTP600 does / can do >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> However, the discussion has to come back to the reality >>>>> that we don't >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus >>>>> bills on a >>>>> whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck >>>>> so we can >>>>> feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good >>>>> enough" >>>>> >>>>> True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, >>>>> but it's akin to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost >>>>> effective (and >>>>> there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your >>>>> shoe >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles >>>>> while bouncing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 >>>>> mile shot and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / >>>>> spectrum >>>>> isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas >>>>> / name >>>>> your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out >>>>> there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is >>>>> over because you >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just >>>>> as (if not >>>>> more) important when talking about WISP networks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's >>>>> mind to analyze >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here >>>>> and follow >>>>> my logic here... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER >>>>> MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (b/c ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and >>>>> like it or >>>>> not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for >>>>> the matter, >>>>> is EBITDA) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum >>>>> (6 channels) >>>>> Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- >>>>> as spectrum gets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring >>>>> 30 Mb to your >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> tower and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your >>>>> tower, and now lose >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees >>>>> up more spectrum >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on >>>>> your backhaul >>>>> ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add >>>>> more >>>>> customers on your tower >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some food for thought =) >>>>> >>>>> -Charles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---- >>>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---- >>>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -------- >>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -------- >>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> --- >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> --- >> --- >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> --- >> --- >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
