I really haven't followed this thread that closely... but with this much confusion... Mikrotik should probably explain how and why they are FCC legal. Most manufacturers put at the end of their user manuals a detailed explanation of their regulatory compliance... Mikrotik should take the time to do the same
Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of ralph >Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:27 PM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices > >Sorry Eje- No need for personal criticism. If you don't like the >discussion, >then press delete- but don't try to silence me. > >What I would like to see happen is for MT to show us the testing. They >shouldn't have anything to hide. >As has been said before, no one can know whether it was actually tested >before or not and whether it passed or not unless it is marked as such >or >the results are published. Other manufacturers do it so why should they >be >any different. > >They should be up front with all the info or else people will be left to >draw their own conclusions. > >I am a MT user, have been using the 386 stuff in PCs for years and years >now >and our entire network is built around it, so I am not anti MT and I >certainly would not spread FUD. I for one would love to know how they >tested >and to what standard (A or B computing device) because we might consider >using the boards more if we knew how they were intended to be used. > >If you are selling their equipment, perhaps you could ask them to >publish >the test results. > >Best wishes > >Ralph > >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of Eje Gustafsson >Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:23 PM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices > >Time to stop this thread since your just spreading FUD.. Read my other >posts. > >All MikroTik products do have the appropriate FCC certification and/or >testing done on them. > >/ Eje > >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of ralph >Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:13 PM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices > >I don't see anything like that on the pdf you referred to. >I have in my hand a 433AH in a case that came from a well known supplier >of >pre-cased RBs >There are no markings on the case about compliance with any rule or any >FCC >numbers at all. >There is nothing that says FCC on the top of the RB inside either. I >did >not remove the board and look underneath. > >As far as where you go to see if it is certified or not, I don't know >all >the places, but there is usually a sticker that gives the details about >the >certification. >You can also check the FCC filing, which I believe even shows replicas >of >the sticker. I think the user's manual also mentions the approval. > >The Crossroads FCC filing shows the sticker and its placement. >https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_i >d=82 >9435&native_or_pdf=pdf > >The user's manual has an entire page dedicated to the FCC data including >all >the warnings on page 11 >https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_i >d=82 >9433&native_or_pdf=pdf > > > >Mikrotik has very little stuff certified. Most of the listings are for >the >same devices, just certified on different frequencies or in different >configurations. >There are the 2 things I already mentioned, as well as these: > >R5H (a radio card only) photos show it in a routerboard being used as a >"test fixture" but test was only for the card, and an FCC label must be >placed on the outside of the final enclosure. Actually the same as >WLM54AGP23 but FCC shown so record of this device. > >R52 : This module is intended for OEM integrator. The OEM integrator is >still responsible >for the FCC compliance requirement of the end product, which integrates >this >module. > > >So if you go and put an R52 in anything, it becomes *your* >responsibility to >the FCC to maintain compliance. MT appears to be pretty much immune to >citations on this issue. One could conclude that someone like Dennis >probably operates this way. > >It isn't just MT. The Williboard stuff (when assembled by Deliberant or >Ligowave) becomes certified too. > >I also seem to remember that the Pronghorn Metro stuff has do it >yourself >instructions showing exactly how to build the unit so it is just like >the >one they had certified, right down to the internal pigtail. > >I can't locate my StarOS equipment to see what they did, but something >is >telling me that they have the proper stickers too. I'd have to check, >or >maybe Lonnie can address the issue. > >It would really be nice to draw together a list of just which equipment >was >and was not. Some folks would care I think. >Of course from what I have read and seen over the years, many of you do >not >care whether or not you are operating legally. > >I'm not trying to start anything- just stating the facts as I see 'em. > >Ralph > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of Randy Cosby >Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:31 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices > >What does the FCC symbol stamped on my RB433AH signify? (see >http://www.routerboard.com/pdf/rb433ah.pdf) > >Where does one look to see what devices are FCC part-15 Class A and B >certified? > >Randy > >Mike Hammett wrote: >> An RB411 does not have onboard wireless at all, only a mPCI. A >crossroads > >> does, however. >> >> >> ----- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "ralph" <ralphli...@bsrg.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:22 PM >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >> >> >>> Don't forget that routerboard is a computer. It does more than enable >the >>> wireless card. >>> It needs to have a Part 15 computing device certification as well, >just >>> like >>> your PC. >>> >>> So regardless of the radio card and the antenna and any of the rest >of >the >>> things that people are disagreeing on, it still boils down to a fine >for >>> the >>> user if the RB causes interference and is found to be not certified. >If >>> some of you were around when PC clones were being first built, we had >>> these >>> computer shows and fairs and even some Hamfests where the local pc >>> builders >>> were showing their wares. A popular PC case was a convenient flip >top >>> affair that allowed easy access to the cards inside without using >screws. >>> The FCC made many a visit to these shows, shutting down and fining >the >>> builders of these systems. They did not build the motherboard and >they >did >>> not build the case, they just *assembled* it, just like you folks are >>> doing >>> with the Mikrotik stuff. >>> >>> As far as I can tell from the FCC info, only 2 routerboards have any >FCC >>> Part 15 Class A or B computing device approval. >>> They are the Crossroads and the RB411- both of which already have on >board >>> wireless. >>> >>> I will quote part 15.3 here and you can decide whether or not your >>> routerboards are required to be certified. >>> If I were you, I would demand that MT have all their computing >devices >>> certified. >>> >>> ======= >>> Digital device:ยง 15.3 (k) Digital device. (Previously defined as a >>> computing >>> device). An unintentional radiator (device or system) that generates >and >>> uses timing signals or pulses at a rate in excess of 9,000 pulses >(cycles) >>> per second and uses digital techniques; inclusive of telephone >equipment >>> that uses digital techniques or any device or system that generates >and >>> uses >>> radio frequency energy for the purpose of performing data processing >>> functions, such as electronic computations, operations, >transformations, >>> recording, filing, sorting, storage, retrieval, or transfer. A radio >>> frequency device that is specifically subject to an emanation >requirement > >>> in >>> any other FCC Rule Part or an intentional radiator subject to Subpart >C >of >>> this Part that contains a digital device is not subject to the >standards >>> for >>> digital devices, provided the digital device is used only to enable >>> operation of the radio frequency device and the digital device does >not >>> control additional functions or capabilities. Note: Computer >terminals >and >>> peripherals that are intended to be connected to a computer are >digital >>> devices. >>> >>> >>> Class A digital device: A Class "A" digital device is a digital >device >>> that >>> is marketed for use in a commercial, industrial or business >environment. >>> >>> Class B digital device: A Class "B" digital device is a digital >device >>> that >>> is marketed for use in a residential environment. Examples of such >devices >>> include, but are not limited to, personal computers, calculators, and >>> similar electronic devices that are marketed for use by the general >>> public. >>> Class B equipment, intended for use in a residential environment >where >the >>> likelihood of RFI is greater, must meet much stricter RF emission >limits >>> than the Class A devices. >>> ======= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >On >>> Behalf Of Dennis Burgess >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:32 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>> >>> The way I understand it, the routerboard don't matter, the antenna, >and >>> radio matters, as its certified as a system, with xx gain of this >type >>> of antenna. You also have to have the FCC information, etc, on the >>> outside that MT offers to only its distributors. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >On >>> Behalf Of Jerry Richardson >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:12 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>> >>> That's been the ongoing argument. >>> >>> I use the analogy of a PCMCIA or USB card. that's the device that is >FCC >>> certified - the computer (routerboard) just runs it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >On >>> Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:53 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>> >>> Excuse my ignorance but since the card is the only thing that >>> transmits why does the board and especially why does the enclosure >>> need to be certified? If one puts a two way radio in a car the radio >>> needs to be certified, not the whole car. >>> >>> Greg >>> On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:30 PM, ralph wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Pretty broad statement: "MT is FCC Certified :)" >>>> Yes, I believe the wireless cards themselves might be- but even if >>>> they are, >>>> that does not an FCC certified system make. >>>> Please give me some FCC registration numbers of certified systems. >>>> Something >>>> like the RB/card/enclosure combination. >>>> Maybe someone built a system and had it tested and received a number >>>> for >>>> *that system*. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Dennis Burgess >>>> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 12:00 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>>> >>>> MT is FCC Certified :) >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer >>>> WISPA Board Member - wispa.org >>>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services >>>> WISPA Vendor Member >>>> Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net >>>> LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training >>>> Author of "Learn RouterOS" >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of ralph >>>> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 10:57 AM >>>> To: 'WISPA General List' >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>>> >>>> Marlon- >>>> You asked, and you probably already know what I will say >>>> >>>> Airaya and others: FCC Certified >>>> Mikrotik- Not so much >>>> It all depends on if you want to be legal or not. >>>> >>>> >>>> If you want 802.11, then look at the Ubiquiti Powerstation. Seems to >>>> work >>>> fine for us, just don't mount it outside. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer >>>> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:19 AM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: [WISPA] backhaul choices >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have to upgrade a couple of backhaul systems and I'm wondering >what >>>> others >>>> >>>> are using. >>>> >>>> I've got Airaya gear in place. I've LOVED it. That's been some of >>>> the >>>> most >>>> >>>> reliable gear that I've ever used. >>>> >>>> I also like my Mikrotik hardware so far. We've put quite a bit of >>>> it in >>>> >>>> over the last year or so. >>>> >>>> Both of the links I'm going to replace are indoor units with coax to >>>> the >>>> >>>> outdoor antennas. So no fancy weather issues to deal with. >>>> >>>> It would be nice to go with Airaya again. But the MT hardware to do >>>> the >>>> >>>> same job is about 20% of the cost last time I checked. I hate to go >>>> too >>>> >>>> cheap, but I hate to spend too much for no gain..... What are you >>>> guys >>>> using these days? Again, the antennas and such are already in >place, >>>> all I >>>> need to replace is the indoor ratios. >>>> >>>> Why would you install what you put in? >>>> >>>> laters, >>>> marlon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- >>> >>>> ---- >>>> ---- >>>> WISPA Wants You! 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