Not to you, but to the thread: Cogent isn't even the low cost leader anymore.
PCCW is often cheaper as is HE. HE even has $1250 GEs and $400 FEs. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom DeReggi" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:17 PM To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams > Brad, > > Once again I disagree. > > Cogent represents themselves as low cost, but they have never represented > themselves as low quality. > > Second, Cogent is most ideal as the FIRST PRIMARY provider, because Cogent > is higher performing, and faster speed connections are more affordable. > I agree, a backup secondary provider is needed to help when there are > short > outages. The backup providers dont need to be as high a capacity, or as > quality, as they are seldom used exempt in the rare emergencies. > > Third, What determines how inexpensive a Transit provider is has nothing > to > do with Quality, it has to do with who has more settlement free peers. > Cogent costs less, because Cogent has to pay "fewer" other ISPs for > capacity. This DOES NOT mean they use low quality public peering, it > means > that they have more quality private peering negotiated at better terms. > >> Bottom line is any carrier can break > > That, I agree with. Which is why its important to have two upstreams. > But, > that is not a reason to not buy Cogent first. > By buying Cogent first it allows a provider to become more profitable > sooner, and therefore able to afford sooner multiple upstreams. > > Its also depends on what the downstream offers in its value proposition. > With Cogent, I offer my custoemrs Gig-E when others can offer 100mb. > With Cogent, I can offer my customers half the price, if not 1/3rd the > price > that my tier2 competitiors can offer. > With Cogent, I offer excellent performance, better than most, most of the > time, and if they get an outage so what. > Is it really better to have less good performance all the time, to gain > .009 > better uptime? > That depends on the target client base of the WISP. > > You also got another thing right... I am largely dependant on Cogent, and > I > hate that. But its relevent to ask why I'm dependant? When I first > started > out, it was because of price, but not anymore. I'm dependant on Cogent > because its really hard to find a Tier1 Carrier that can offer anywhere > near > as equivellent consistent performance and tech support. My customers > really > noticed, everytime I tried someone else, so someone else never lastest. > > Note that I did not say "uptime", I said "performance". > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad Belton" <[email protected]> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams > > >> While I agree no solution can be considered equal in any given location, >> there are trends or a general barometer to help place one carrier over >> another. This is the reality that typically puts Cogent towards the back >> of >> the bus in most people's minds. >> >> The biggest proponents of Cogent are those that are largely dependent on >> Cogent due to any number of reasons. Budget constraints, lack of >> alternate >> higher quality peer availability etc, etc. Cogent makes no excuse >> promoting >> themselves as the low end, budget driven bottom dollar provider. They >> are >> good for what they offer, but again not what a network administrator >> looking >> for high availability is going to pick as a first choice. >> >> "You might even get away with saying Cogent has a few more short duration >> (less than 15 minutes?) outages than other carriers." >> >> This is exactly my point (being made by Tom, a Cogent customer!) why >> Cogent >> should not be depended on as a sole or primary Internet feed. If >> Cogent's >> all you got then you're SOL! >> >> Bottom line is any carrier can break. If you can only have one then find >> one that breaks the least. If you can have more than one, Cogent is a >> good >> low cost second or third to have in a pinch for relatively little cost. >> >> Best, >> >> >> Brad >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:28 PM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >> >> It should be noted that an Upstreams performance can be directly >> proportional to the location where they have more peering. >> In the DC and NY markets, Cogent has excellent performance and peering, >> and >> >> has shown to outperform EVERY provider we have tried, period. >> (And yes, some of the carriers we tried were Level3, XO, and Abovenet.) >> I recognize that Cogent's performance "may" not be as good for ALL >> markets >> where they potentially could have a weaker presence. >> But saying Cogent is only worthy of the 3rd or 4th transit connection is >> simply untrue. >> >> Cogent's weak point now is internal processes and communication. They've >> lost touch with the value of having personal Account Reps, and render the >> reps powerless to manage the accounts, in favor of the customer >> relationship >> >> managed by the clueless billing/collections department. Its a shame. You >> might even get away with saying Cogent has a few more short duration >> (less >> than 15 minutes?) outages than other carriers. But their tech support >> has >> been the best by far in the industry, and oversubscription has never been >> a >> problem from what I see. >> >> In picking a Transit provider its really a decision about where your >> traffic >> >> typically flows, and where you need good performance to. NOT anyone has >> best >> >> performance everywhere. >> For example, Hurricane has excellent performance AND they are >> inexpensive. >> They have a really good peering presensence in CA. I'm not confident that >> they have nearly as good a presence on the East coast though, but those >> that >> >> have used them on teh east coast that I know have been happy. We were >> considering using them. >> >> Abovenet has great Gig-E Transport. But their transit is expensive, and >> its >> because its more expensive for them to provide it, because they are not >> as >> well positioned to do it cost effectively, not because its necessarilly >> better. Level3 as well, has many strength. They have a lot of web host >> clients. It can really help performance to reach certain sites. Level3 >> also >> tends to blocks smaller BGP block announcements, more so than someone >> like >> Cogent. Level3 is good for a secondaryu because they usually have >> diverse >> routes. Some providers have good performance to France, Amsterdam, India, >> others dont. Savvis tends to have real peering to NY finacnial markets. >> I >> often see Blended bandwdith combining Global Cross and Level3, not sure >> why >> these two are chosen as a pair. Maybe its simply becaue they tend to be >> colocated at the same carrier hotels? >> >> But selecting a transit provider is not as simple as saying one is >> better. >> My personaly opinion is, find the two lowest cost providers, and then you >> can afford to buy more bandwidth, and have two options to route >> customers. >> >> You also need to consider the path to where you take it. For example, >> Cogent >> >> remote tenant buildings likely have routers with less ram that cant >> handle >> full BGP tables, so they require creating session to two seperate BGP >> servers (with the second one having full routes.). But of you connect to >> them inb a major colo center that doesn;t exist. Similar things exist >> with >> other providers depending on where you pick up the circuit. >> >> What I like about Abovenet, is they'll map out their network for you, so >> you >> >> know exactly what you are buying, so true redunancy can be built into the >> network design. Cogent is a bit more secrative about the traffic path. >> >> XO has had some really good account reps, and I liked that. But for me, >> they >> >> didn't really give me anything exciting as far as price or performance, >> more >> >> than anyone else. >> >> It should also be noted that it could make a big difference which local >> colo >> >> you pick the circuit up in also. So when you are evaluating a provider >> you >> are also evaluating the venue where the circuit is in. >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brad Belton" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]>; "'WISPA General List'" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >> >> >>> Cogent can be ok, but they are not equal to AboveNET, XO, AT&T, Level3 >>> etc... We have multiple upstream GigE feeds and Cogent is one of them. >>> >>> It took us months to get Cogent to resolve a flapping switch or router >>> within their network. After a couple dozen screenshots and trace routes >>> from various looking glass sites they finally conceded. Granted the >>> outages >>> were only between 5 and 60 seconds long when they occurred and rarely >>> were >>> long enough to break BGP sessions, but they were hell on VoIP! >>> >>> It took us less than a day to find the specific Cogent IP or device >>> where >>> the problem was occurring, but months before Cogent acted on the >>> information >>> we provided them. Cogent Support honestly wasn't that bad, but said >>> their >>> hands were tied until management further up the chain completed their >>> investigation. During that time we had to route voice traffic around >>> Cogent >>> as best we could. >>> >>> Cogent is great as a cheap third or fourth GigE upstream, but never a >>> sole >>> or primary Internet feed, IMO. While Cogent goes about their BGP >>> peering >>> a >>> little different than most, I do agree their BGP Support is equal to >>> anyone >>> else's we've worked with. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>> Behalf Of Bret Clark >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:15 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >>> >>> I always hear about Cogent having a bad rap, but where does that come >>> from? I can't say that one bit! They've worked great for us and during >>> the initial install clearly went above and beyond the call of duty when >>> we encountered a problem even waking a VP up at 1AM on a Sunday morning >>> because we need to have the circuit up and running by first thing >>> Monday! >>> >>> When I have add to call their tech support up about questions that >>> actually understand what BGP is and how it works! >>> Bret >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:58 -0500, Jon Auer wrote: >>> >>>> Cogent has a bad rap but they have been solid for us for the past >>>> year. Prior to that they had a few hickups. Their peering is pretty >>>> good. Low latency to all major content sites. >>>> >>>> Level3 seems to have more outages than a provider of their reputation >>> should. >>>> >>>> Savvis is has poor peering from what I hear. >>>> >>>> I'd like to add Abovenet or Global crossing to my mix. >>>> >>>> On 10/21/09, Marco Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > I'm a GigE circuit to the mix, and I've got a choice of: >>>> > >>>> > Abovenet >>>> > Cogent >>>> > Global Crossing >>>> > Level3 >>>> > Savvis >>>> > >>>> > I'm looking for recommendations of who the better upstream is. >>>> > >>>> > Marco >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Marco C. Coelho >>>> > Argon Technologies Inc. >>>> > POB 875 >>>> > Greenville, TX 75403-0875 >>>> > 903-455-5036 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> > WISPA Wants You! 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