I just got a quote today from a HE reseller for the HE facility in Fremont CA $599 cabinet with 15 amps $699 cabinet with 15 amps and 20 Megabits/sec $899 cabinet with 15 amps and 100 megabits/sec
John Tom DeReggi wrote: >> HE even has $1250 GEs >> > > Wow, is that transport or transit? > > Yeah, 2 months ago, we were going to get an Abovenet transport to Hurricain > transit because Hurricane's market low pricing, but then Equinix started > giving us a hard time on colo, trying to charge us more for the colo than > both the transport and transit links combined, so we pulled the plug on the > order. > > Hurricaine had the $2 /mb on GIg-E as long as also do IPv6 w/ IPv4. But > where HE did better is they also gave good pricing on the low capacity > commits. That makes it cost effective to give HE a try, before going all > out, provided you're in a colo they are at. > > We also found a couple providers that had some really cool programs like you > commit to a monthly dollar figure, but could accept the bandwdith from any > Equinix facility or distributed between several of them, and move the > capacity on the fly to either location. It was great option for someone > wanting to expand nationwide, but not knowing where sales will develop first > more. > But it also allowed Gig-E pricing without having to pay for GIg-E in > multiple locations. > > Its to bad its at Equinix though, cause a lot of teh value proposition got > killed once transport added to it to get out to remote cell site, or > Equinix's clueless overcharging of antenna roof space. > Again its really sad when someone tried to charge more for an antenna > position than a GIg-E fiber link. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Hammett" <[email protected]> > To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams > > > >> Not to you, but to the thread: >> >> Cogent isn't even the low cost leader anymore. >> >> PCCW is often cheaper as is HE. >> >> HE even has $1250 GEs and $400 FEs. >> >> >> ----- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:17 PM >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >> >> >>> Brad, >>> >>> Once again I disagree. >>> >>> Cogent represents themselves as low cost, but they have never >>> represented >>> themselves as low quality. >>> >>> Second, Cogent is most ideal as the FIRST PRIMARY provider, because >>> Cogent >>> is higher performing, and faster speed connections are more affordable. >>> I agree, a backup secondary provider is needed to help when there are >>> short >>> outages. The backup providers dont need to be as high a capacity, or as >>> quality, as they are seldom used exempt in the rare emergencies. >>> >>> Third, What determines how inexpensive a Transit provider is has nothing >>> to >>> do with Quality, it has to do with who has more settlement free peers. >>> Cogent costs less, because Cogent has to pay "fewer" other ISPs for >>> capacity. This DOES NOT mean they use low quality public peering, it >>> means >>> that they have more quality private peering negotiated at better terms. >>> >>> >>>> Bottom line is any carrier can break >>>> >>> That, I agree with. Which is why its important to have two upstreams. >>> But, >>> that is not a reason to not buy Cogent first. >>> By buying Cogent first it allows a provider to become more profitable >>> sooner, and therefore able to afford sooner multiple upstreams. >>> >>> Its also depends on what the downstream offers in its value proposition. >>> With Cogent, I offer my custoemrs Gig-E when others can offer 100mb. >>> With Cogent, I can offer my customers half the price, if not 1/3rd the >>> price >>> that my tier2 competitiors can offer. >>> With Cogent, I offer excellent performance, better than most, most of the >>> time, and if they get an outage so what. >>> Is it really better to have less good performance all the time, to gain >>> .009 >>> better uptime? >>> That depends on the target client base of the WISP. >>> >>> You also got another thing right... I am largely dependant on Cogent, and >>> I >>> hate that. But its relevent to ask why I'm dependant? When I first >>> started >>> out, it was because of price, but not anymore. I'm dependant on Cogent >>> because its really hard to find a Tier1 Carrier that can offer anywhere >>> near >>> as equivellent consistent performance and tech support. My customers >>> really >>> noticed, everytime I tried someone else, so someone else never lastest. >>> >>> Note that I did not say "uptime", I said "performance". >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brad Belton" <[email protected]> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >>> >>> >>> >>>> While I agree no solution can be considered equal in any given location, >>>> there are trends or a general barometer to help place one carrier over >>>> another. This is the reality that typically puts Cogent towards the >>>> back >>>> of >>>> the bus in most people's minds. >>>> >>>> The biggest proponents of Cogent are those that are largely dependent on >>>> Cogent due to any number of reasons. Budget constraints, lack of >>>> alternate >>>> higher quality peer availability etc, etc. Cogent makes no excuse >>>> promoting >>>> themselves as the low end, budget driven bottom dollar provider. They >>>> are >>>> good for what they offer, but again not what a network administrator >>>> looking >>>> for high availability is going to pick as a first choice. >>>> >>>> "You might even get away with saying Cogent has a few more short >>>> duration >>>> (less than 15 minutes?) outages than other carriers." >>>> >>>> This is exactly my point (being made by Tom, a Cogent customer!) why >>>> Cogent >>>> should not be depended on as a sole or primary Internet feed. If >>>> Cogent's >>>> all you got then you're SOL! >>>> >>>> Bottom line is any carrier can break. If you can only have one then >>>> find >>>> one that breaks the least. If you can have more than one, Cogent is a >>>> good >>>> low cost second or third to have in a pinch for relatively little cost. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:28 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >>>> >>>> It should be noted that an Upstreams performance can be directly >>>> proportional to the location where they have more peering. >>>> In the DC and NY markets, Cogent has excellent performance and peering, >>>> and >>>> >>>> has shown to outperform EVERY provider we have tried, period. >>>> (And yes, some of the carriers we tried were Level3, XO, and Abovenet.) >>>> I recognize that Cogent's performance "may" not be as good for ALL >>>> markets >>>> where they potentially could have a weaker presence. >>>> But saying Cogent is only worthy of the 3rd or 4th transit connection >>>> is >>>> simply untrue. >>>> >>>> Cogent's weak point now is internal processes and communication. They've >>>> lost touch with the value of having personal Account Reps, and render >>>> the >>>> reps powerless to manage the accounts, in favor of the customer >>>> relationship >>>> >>>> managed by the clueless billing/collections department. Its a shame. You >>>> might even get away with saying Cogent has a few more short duration >>>> (less >>>> than 15 minutes?) outages than other carriers. But their tech support >>>> has >>>> been the best by far in the industry, and oversubscription has never >>>> been >>>> a >>>> problem from what I see. >>>> >>>> In picking a Transit provider its really a decision about where your >>>> traffic >>>> >>>> typically flows, and where you need good performance to. NOT anyone has >>>> best >>>> >>>> performance everywhere. >>>> For example, Hurricane has excellent performance AND they are >>>> inexpensive. >>>> They have a really good peering presensence in CA. I'm not confident >>>> that >>>> they have nearly as good a presence on the East coast though, but those >>>> that >>>> >>>> have used them on teh east coast that I know have been happy. We were >>>> considering using them. >>>> >>>> Abovenet has great Gig-E Transport. But their transit is expensive, and >>>> its >>>> because its more expensive for them to provide it, because they are not >>>> as >>>> well positioned to do it cost effectively, not because its necessarilly >>>> better. Level3 as well, has many strength. They have a lot of web host >>>> clients. It can really help performance to reach certain sites. Level3 >>>> also >>>> tends to blocks smaller BGP block announcements, more so than someone >>>> like >>>> Cogent. Level3 is good for a secondaryu because they usually have >>>> diverse >>>> routes. Some providers have good performance to France, Amsterdam, >>>> India, >>>> others dont. Savvis tends to have real peering to NY finacnial markets. >>>> I >>>> often see Blended bandwdith combining Global Cross and Level3, not sure >>>> why >>>> these two are chosen as a pair. Maybe its simply becaue they tend to be >>>> colocated at the same carrier hotels? >>>> >>>> But selecting a transit provider is not as simple as saying one is >>>> better. >>>> My personaly opinion is, find the two lowest cost providers, and then >>>> you >>>> can afford to buy more bandwidth, and have two options to route >>>> customers. >>>> >>>> You also need to consider the path to where you take it. For example, >>>> Cogent >>>> >>>> remote tenant buildings likely have routers with less ram that cant >>>> handle >>>> full BGP tables, so they require creating session to two seperate BGP >>>> servers (with the second one having full routes.). But of you connect >>>> to >>>> them inb a major colo center that doesn;t exist. Similar things exist >>>> with >>>> other providers depending on where you pick up the circuit. >>>> >>>> What I like about Abovenet, is they'll map out their network for you, so >>>> you >>>> >>>> know exactly what you are buying, so true redunancy can be built into >>>> the >>>> network design. Cogent is a bit more secrative about the traffic path. >>>> >>>> XO has had some really good account reps, and I liked that. But for me, >>>> they >>>> >>>> didn't really give me anything exciting as far as price or performance, >>>> more >>>> >>>> than anyone else. >>>> >>>> It should also be noted that it could make a big difference which local >>>> colo >>>> >>>> you pick the circuit up in also. So when you are evaluating a provider >>>> you >>>> are also evaluating the venue where the circuit is in. >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi >>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brad Belton" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]>; "'WISPA General List'" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:47 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Cogent can be ok, but they are not equal to AboveNET, XO, AT&T, Level3 >>>>> etc... We have multiple upstream GigE feeds and Cogent is one of them. >>>>> >>>>> It took us months to get Cogent to resolve a flapping switch or router >>>>> within their network. After a couple dozen screenshots and trace >>>>> routes >>>>> from various looking glass sites they finally conceded. Granted the >>>>> outages >>>>> were only between 5 and 60 seconds long when they occurred and rarely >>>>> were >>>>> long enough to break BGP sessions, but they were hell on VoIP! >>>>> >>>>> It took us less than a day to find the specific Cogent IP or device >>>>> where >>>>> the problem was occurring, but months before Cogent acted on the >>>>> information >>>>> we provided them. Cogent Support honestly wasn't that bad, but said >>>>> their >>>>> hands were tied until management further up the chain completed their >>>>> investigation. During that time we had to route voice traffic around >>>>> Cogent >>>>> as best we could. >>>>> >>>>> Cogent is great as a cheap third or fourth GigE upstream, but never a >>>>> sole >>>>> or primary Internet feed, IMO. While Cogent goes about their BGP >>>>> peering >>>>> a >>>>> little different than most, I do agree their BGP Support is equal to >>>>> anyone >>>>> else's we've worked with. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>>>> Behalf Of Bret Clark >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:15 PM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] choice of upstreams >>>>> >>>>> I always hear about Cogent having a bad rap, but where does that come >>>>> from? I can't say that one bit! They've worked great for us and during >>>>> the initial install clearly went above and beyond the call of duty when >>>>> we encountered a problem even waking a VP up at 1AM on a Sunday morning >>>>> because we need to have the circuit up and running by first thing >>>>> Monday! >>>>> >>>>> When I have add to call their tech support up about questions that >>>>> actually understand what BGP is and how it works! >>>>> Bret >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:58 -0500, Jon Auer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Cogent has a bad rap but they have been solid for us for the past >>>>>> year. Prior to that they had a few hickups. Their peering is pretty >>>>>> good. Low latency to all major content sites. >>>>>> >>>>>> Level3 seems to have more outages than a provider of their reputation >>>>>> >>>>> should. >>>>> >>>>>> Savvis is has poor peering from what I hear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to add Abovenet or Global crossing to my mix. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/21/09, Marco Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a GigE circuit to the mix, and I've got a choice of: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Abovenet >>>>>>> Cogent >>>>>>> Global Crossing >>>>>>> Level3 >>>>>>> Savvis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm looking for recommendations of who the better upstream is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Marco C. Coelho >>>>>>> Argon Technologies Inc. >>>>>>> POB 875 >>>>>>> Greenville, TX 75403-0875 >>>>>>> 903-455-5036 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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