Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use.Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike" <m...@aweiowa.com> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote:It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote:At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote:What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -----Original Message----- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 -------- Original Message --------From: "Jack Unger" <jun...@ask-wi.com> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote:Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To DebutNetworkUsing 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadbandnetwork inrural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TVchannels.House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, whorepresentsrural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host aWebcastwith residents of an Appalachian community talking about howwirelessInterent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectruminsecondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wirelessInternetproviders to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in apotentialservice area to make it economically viable.------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ----WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ----WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/-- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString...------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ----WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ----WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- WISPA Wants You! 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